1
00:00:08,660 --> 00:00:06,860
hi everyone

2
00:00:12,110 --> 00:00:08,670
I have an interview coming up in a

3
00:00:14,419 --> 00:00:12,120
minute with rizz Burke the author of the

4
00:00:17,930 --> 00:00:14,429
simulation hypothesis and a guy who

5
00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:17,940
keeps popping up more and more these

6
00:00:26,359 --> 00:00:21,510
days in all the right places super smart

7
00:00:30,050 --> 00:00:26,369
super accomplished with a fresh new very

8
00:00:33,650 --> 00:00:30,060
imaginative and very challenging angle

9
00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:33,660
on this simulation are we living in a

10
00:00:40,630 --> 00:00:36,930
simulation hypothesis he comes at things

11
00:00:44,590 --> 00:00:40,640
from a very advanced computer MIT

12
00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:44,600
cutting-edge gaming virtual reality AI

13
00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:48,180
perspective and that really brings a lot

14
00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:51,090
to the table here are some clips from

15
00:00:57,860 --> 00:00:54,600
the interview if you can do it you will

16
00:01:01,340 --> 00:00:57,870
do it and the Luddites never really win

17
00:01:03,529 --> 00:01:01,350
do they yeah I mean if that's one thing

18
00:01:05,380 --> 00:01:03,539
that we generally learned in history is

19
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:05,390
that if something can be done

20
00:01:10,940 --> 00:01:08,490
technologically it's likely that it will

21
00:01:13,100 --> 00:01:10,950
be done when you talk about simulation

22
00:01:16,190 --> 00:01:13,110
it's the kind of thing that you know I

23
00:01:18,170 --> 00:01:16,200
lay out in in in my book the ten stages

24
00:01:20,450 --> 00:01:18,180
to the simulation point so these are

25
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:20,460
stages of technology that we would have

26
00:01:23,510 --> 00:01:21,930
to develop and of course I look at it

27
00:01:25,249 --> 00:01:23,520
from a videogame perspective so stage

28
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:25,259
one is the creation of the first text

29
00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:26,130
adventure Ames

30
00:01:31,069 --> 00:01:28,140
Stage two or graphical games like

31
00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:31,079
pac-man etc getting to virtual reality

32
00:01:36,039 --> 00:01:33,110
and augmented reality where we are today

33
00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:36,049
but what I like about the simulation

34
00:01:41,830 --> 00:01:38,750
hypothesis is that it provides a bridge

35
00:01:45,649 --> 00:01:41,840
between the materialist world view and

36
00:01:47,030 --> 00:01:45,659
the world view of the Mystics and people

37
00:01:49,490 --> 00:01:47,040
who think that consciousness is

38
00:01:51,050 --> 00:01:49,500
fundamental and that's why you know I'm

39
00:01:52,940 --> 00:01:51,060
glad you the first thing you brought up

40
00:01:56,090 --> 00:01:52,950
was this distinction between neo and

41
00:01:58,100 --> 00:01:56,100
Agent Smith because that really is the

42
00:02:01,160 --> 00:01:58,110
fundamental tension that I tried to

43
00:02:04,459 --> 00:02:01,170
explore in this book is that you know is

44
00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:04,469
consciousness just reproduction of

45
00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:07,710
neurons which in which case they can be

46
00:02:12,470 --> 00:02:10,200
and consciousness can be reproduced or

47
00:02:13,750 --> 00:02:12,480
is it in fact a conscious entity outside

48
00:02:15,580 --> 00:02:13,760
that's playing

49
00:02:17,170 --> 00:02:15,590
role or playing a game but that's

50
00:02:19,539 --> 00:02:17,180
something that I can discuss you know

51
00:02:21,130 --> 00:02:19,549
with physicists and people at MIT and I

52
00:02:24,130 --> 00:02:21,140
can discuss it with Buddhist monks and

53
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:24,140
it's got that with you know biblical

54
00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:27,530
scholars as well because there's lots of

55
00:02:32,530 --> 00:02:29,930
aspects to AI and this idea that the

56
00:02:34,899 --> 00:02:32,540
world around us isn't quite the real

57
00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:34,909
world right that perhaps there is

58
00:02:39,670 --> 00:02:37,750
another world that we cannot see

59
00:02:41,259 --> 00:02:39,680
same thing with spoon bending right

60
00:02:44,830 --> 00:02:41,269
people will say it doesn't exist but

61
00:02:46,599 --> 00:02:44,840
many people have seen it so you know I

62
00:02:48,610 --> 00:02:46,609
think it's showing us that the material

63
00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:48,620
world is not quite what we think it is

64
00:02:54,369 --> 00:02:52,970
but it's so far out of the paradigms so

65
00:02:55,809 --> 00:02:54,379
getting back to Jacque Valley and UFOs

66
00:02:57,670 --> 00:02:55,819
you know I had lunch with him recently

67
00:03:00,099 --> 00:02:57,680
and he told me he investigated a case

68
00:03:01,809 --> 00:03:00,109
where they were supposed to the UFO and

69
00:03:03,970 --> 00:03:01,819
they said it came down at a 45-degree

70
00:03:06,819 --> 00:03:03,980
angle and it actually left some marks on

71
00:03:09,220 --> 00:03:06,829
the ground and so there were some

72
00:03:10,869 --> 00:03:09,230
physical evidence so John went back

73
00:03:12,399 --> 00:03:10,879
after the original investigation and he

74
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:12,409
he looked at he looked at he said you

75
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:14,810
said it went at a 45 degree angle that

76
00:03:20,050 --> 00:03:16,370
means it would have had to go through

77
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:20,060
the trees they said yeah but we don't

78
00:03:24,610 --> 00:03:21,290
want to tell anybody that because nobody

79
00:03:27,009 --> 00:03:24,620
would believe us which gets back to you

80
00:03:30,490 --> 00:03:27,019
know is this a virtual phenomenon that

81
00:03:32,770 --> 00:03:30,500
gets materialized when it's needed and

82
00:03:34,750 --> 00:03:32,780
it's something that we see and so you

83
00:03:37,449 --> 00:03:34,760
know I think that's where kind of

84
00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:37,459
explaining how all that works is is the

85
00:03:43,230 --> 00:03:38,889
task that's ongoing

86
00:03:49,790 --> 00:03:43,240
stay with us for skeptical

87
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:49,800
[Music]

88
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:52,090
welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

89
00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:53,890
controversial science and spirituality

90
00:03:57,570 --> 00:03:56,650
with leading researchers thinkers and

91
00:04:00,570 --> 00:03:57,580
their critics

92
00:04:03,870 --> 00:04:00,580
I'm your host Alex Karras and today we

93
00:04:05,910 --> 00:04:03,880
welcome the amazing RIS Virk to skeptic

94
00:04:08,250 --> 00:04:05,920
Oh R is is a super successful

95
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:08,260
entrepreneur and video game creator who

96
00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:11,290
became a super successful high tech

97
00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:13,930
investor and a super successful movie

98
00:04:17,460 --> 00:04:15,820
producer and okay this is getting a

99
00:04:20,130 --> 00:04:17,470
little ridiculous but it's all true

100
00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:20,140
folks one more throw in their super

101
00:04:24,660 --> 00:04:22,060
successful author of several

102
00:04:26,970 --> 00:04:24,670
best-selling books including one that

103
00:04:32,340 --> 00:04:26,980
we're going to talk about today the

104
00:04:33,930 --> 00:04:32,350
simulation hypothesis so R is fantastic

105
00:04:36,420 --> 00:04:33,940
to have you here thanks so much for

106
00:04:39,870 --> 00:04:36,430
joining me and welcome to skeptic oh I

107
00:04:42,210 --> 00:04:39,880
thank so much for having me yeah you

108
00:04:45,270 --> 00:04:42,220
know the simulation hypothesis is

109
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:45,280
something that all my listeners are

110
00:04:49,350 --> 00:04:47,770
going to be familiar with but jumping

111
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:49,360
right into the middle of this not

112
00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:51,730
wasting any time one of the things that

113
00:04:59,160 --> 00:04:54,910
I thought was interesting about what you

114
00:05:02,160 --> 00:04:59,170
did in your book is I love how you kind

115
00:05:05,420 --> 00:05:02,170
of brought in the idea that there's

116
00:05:07,730 --> 00:05:05,430
really more than one simulation

117
00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:07,740
hypothesis out there and I thought was

118
00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:10,090
particularly interesting the way you

119
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:13,290
gave it from a kind of matrix

120
00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:16,770
perspective and the difference between

121
00:05:24,060 --> 00:05:22,120
neo and Agent Smith so jumping right in

122
00:05:27,210 --> 00:05:24,070
the middle of this do you want to kind

123
00:05:30,210 --> 00:05:27,220
of tell us why there are really more

124
00:05:32,490 --> 00:05:30,220
than one simulation hypothesis and how

125
00:05:35,790 --> 00:05:32,500
you might break that down as a video

126
00:05:37,470 --> 00:05:35,800
game guy yeah sure and so you know the

127
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:37,480
simulation hypothesis is the idea that

128
00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:39,490
we live inside the computer simulation

129
00:05:43,620 --> 00:05:41,320
which as you said many of your listeners

130
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:43,630
have probably already heard of and are

131
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:46,210
familiar with the concept so it was

132
00:05:49,410 --> 00:05:47,410
considered pretty much science fiction

133
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:49,420
for many years especially when the

134
00:05:53,390 --> 00:05:51,370
matrix came out but that is very much

135
00:05:56,510 --> 00:05:53,400
the most popular I

136
00:05:58,820 --> 00:05:56,520
the incarnation of that idea and so I

137
00:06:01,129 --> 00:05:58,830
like to use matrix references as much as

138
00:06:03,170 --> 00:06:01,139
possible just because it's a easy way

139
00:06:04,820 --> 00:06:03,180
for people to understand that and so I

140
00:06:06,830 --> 00:06:04,830
break it down and that there's actually

141
00:06:09,740 --> 00:06:06,840
two different versions of the simulation

142
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:09,750
hypothesis they're not entirely mutually

143
00:06:14,990 --> 00:06:12,330
exclusive and I call those the NPC

144
00:06:17,570 --> 00:06:15,000
version or the non-player character

145
00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:17,580
version of the simulation hypothesis

146
00:06:23,330 --> 00:06:21,360
where everyone is an AI and so this

147
00:06:25,310 --> 00:06:23,340
would be I guess you would say this is

148
00:06:27,469 --> 00:06:25,320
what the materialist view of the

149
00:06:30,050 --> 00:06:27,479
simulation hypothesis would be that

150
00:06:31,909 --> 00:06:30,060
consciousness arises from simulating

151
00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:31,919
neurons on a computer and therefore

152
00:06:37,730 --> 00:06:34,770
everyone is a computer program or shall

153
00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:37,740
we say just a computer program the other

154
00:06:42,469 --> 00:06:39,720
version of the simulation hypothesis I

155
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:42,479
like to call it the RPG version or the

156
00:06:47,870 --> 00:06:45,090
role-playing game version is where

157
00:06:52,250 --> 00:06:47,880
players exist outside of the game and

158
00:06:54,050 --> 00:06:52,260
then they play an avatar inside the game

159
00:06:56,689 --> 00:06:54,060
so very much like I might have a

160
00:06:59,270 --> 00:06:56,699
character in World of Warcraft or in

161
00:07:02,240 --> 00:06:59,280
fortnight or in the matrix and so I like

162
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:02,250
to use the the distinction between neo

163
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:05,330
who exists outside the matrix and

164
00:07:09,980 --> 00:07:07,530
Morpheus who was named after the Greek

165
00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:09,990
god of dreams Laurence Fishburne who

166
00:07:15,050 --> 00:07:12,900
also exists outside the matrix versus

167
00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:15,060
Agent Smith who is simply a computer

168
00:07:19,250 --> 00:07:17,310
program and even though he's in the

169
00:07:21,740 --> 00:07:19,260
simulation appears to have godlike

170
00:07:25,490 --> 00:07:21,750
powers within the simulation as well

171
00:07:27,409 --> 00:07:25,500
he is just an AI and so what most people

172
00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:27,419
don't realize is that when a lot of

173
00:07:30,469 --> 00:07:28,560
academics are talking about the

174
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:30,479
simulation hypothesis they are talking

175
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:33,810
about the NPC version but Agent Smith

176
00:07:38,719 --> 00:07:36,810
version that's exactly right yeah and

177
00:07:40,550 --> 00:07:38,729
the reason is if you go back to you know

178
00:07:43,580 --> 00:07:40,560
one of the events that made this a

179
00:07:46,850 --> 00:07:43,590
popular topic of conversation was a Nick

180
00:07:48,140 --> 00:07:46,860
Bostrom's paper in 2003 are you living

181
00:07:50,750 --> 00:07:48,150
in a computer simulation he's a

182
00:07:52,610 --> 00:07:50,760
philosopher at Oxford and you know he

183
00:07:54,890 --> 00:07:52,620
laid out three possibilities one is that

184
00:07:57,110 --> 00:07:54,900
a civilization never reaches what I like

185
00:07:59,120 --> 00:07:57,120
to call the simulation point which is

186
00:08:01,250 --> 00:07:59,130
the point at which we can create a

187
00:08:03,709 --> 00:08:01,260
simulation or a video game that's so

188
00:08:05,959 --> 00:08:03,719
realistic that it can't be distinguished

189
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:05,969
from physical reality the second is that

190
00:08:09,260 --> 00:08:06,930
it reaches that point

191
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:09,270
but it never creates any simulations and

192
00:08:13,580 --> 00:08:11,850
the third possibility is that we are

193
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:13,590
most likely living in a simulation and

194
00:08:17,659 --> 00:08:15,570
he says that is because if the

195
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:17,669
civilization ever gets there anywhere in

196
00:08:22,070 --> 00:08:19,530
the galaxy then they will create lots

197
00:08:23,659 --> 00:08:22,080
and lots of similar simulations inside

198
00:08:25,999 --> 00:08:23,669
those simulations will be billions if

199
00:08:27,950 --> 00:08:26,009
not trillions of beings in each one and

200
00:08:29,659 --> 00:08:27,960
you might have billions of those so if

201
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:29,669
you just add up all of the beings in the

202
00:08:35,930 --> 00:08:32,370
universe there's more likely to be more

203
00:08:37,820 --> 00:08:35,940
simulated beings then there are you know

204
00:08:41,149 --> 00:08:37,830
beings who actually have a player

205
00:08:44,329 --> 00:08:41,159
associated with them multiple agents

206
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:44,339
myths like we see and then multiple

207
00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:46,290
simulations and one of the things that I

208
00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:49,790
really thought was was quite you know

209
00:08:57,829 --> 00:08:52,950
great that you drilled this home is the

210
00:08:59,660 --> 00:08:57,839
if you can you will kind of thing and I

211
00:09:02,269 --> 00:08:59,670
think it plays into so much of what

212
00:09:04,910 --> 00:09:02,279
we've experienced both not just in

213
00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:04,920
computer technology but in the

214
00:09:09,140 --> 00:09:06,480
advancement of technology and the

215
00:09:11,690 --> 00:09:09,150
advancement of civilization if you can

216
00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:11,700
do it you will do it and the Luddites

217
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:16,380
never really win do they yeah I mean if

218
00:09:20,510 --> 00:09:17,850
that's one thing that we've generally

219
00:09:21,470 --> 00:09:20,520
learned in history is that if something

220
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:21,480
can be done

221
00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:24,330
technologically it's likely that it will

222
00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:26,930
be done and you know when you talk about

223
00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:29,310
simulation it's the kind of thing that

224
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:32,640
you know I lay out in in in my book the

225
00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:34,890
ten stages to the simulation point so

226
00:09:38,449 --> 00:09:37,110
these are stages of technology that we

227
00:09:39,769 --> 00:09:38,459
would have to develop and of course I

228
00:09:41,660 --> 00:09:39,779
look at it from a video game perspective

229
00:09:44,060 --> 00:09:41,670
so stage one is the creation of the

230
00:09:47,180 --> 00:09:44,070
first text adventure Ames stage two or

231
00:09:48,650 --> 00:09:47,190
graphical games like pac-man etc getting

232
00:09:51,740 --> 00:09:48,660
to virtual reality and augmented reality

233
00:09:53,420 --> 00:09:51,750
where we are today and by stage ten we

234
00:09:58,540 --> 00:09:53,430
would get to downloadable consciousness

235
00:10:01,550 --> 00:09:58,550
where we can actually get right into a

236
00:10:03,650 --> 00:10:01,560
character that's based on silicon and

237
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:03,660
that might come through brain computer

238
00:10:08,780 --> 00:10:05,450
interfaces so if you remember the matrix

239
00:10:11,180 --> 00:10:08,790
neo had that wire connected to the back

240
00:10:12,829 --> 00:10:11,190
of his head and so with the simulation

241
00:10:15,530 --> 00:10:12,839
hypothesis the idea is if anyone ever

242
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:15,540
gets there then it's likely they've

243
00:10:19,069 --> 00:10:17,610
already made many many different

244
00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:19,079
simulations so I think you know that

245
00:10:24,389 --> 00:10:21,310
that's a really interesting

246
00:10:26,670 --> 00:10:24,399
and it's a good way to think about you

247
00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:26,680
know how things might evolve it's kind

248
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:28,420
of eye-opening for people too because

249
00:10:32,579 --> 00:10:30,730
you know some people will buy the

250
00:10:34,590 --> 00:10:32,589
concept that we will get there and we

251
00:10:36,509 --> 00:10:34,600
will create realistic sim elections but

252
00:10:38,370 --> 00:10:36,519
making that leap to well then somebody

253
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:38,380
else has already created one or more is

254
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:42,250
it is a conceptually now we'll come back

255
00:10:45,630 --> 00:10:43,930
to this in a minute because you know the

256
00:10:47,550 --> 00:10:45,640
one thing I also think are the kind of

257
00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:47,560
thing I would interject in there is I

258
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:49,690
think there's a lot of different

259
00:10:57,060 --> 00:10:53,200
permutations and combinations along that

260
00:10:59,759 --> 00:10:57,070
path that are interesting to including

261
00:11:01,769 --> 00:10:59,769
augmented consciousness augmented

262
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:01,779
reality all those things and I don't

263
00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:04,930
know that it really breaks down as just

264
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:07,480
those two but interesting stuff to talk

265
00:11:12,090 --> 00:11:09,370
about but let me jump to another topic

266
00:11:14,370 --> 00:11:12,100
that again as a real head-scratcher but

267
00:11:17,069 --> 00:11:14,380
add so much the conversation and you

268
00:11:19,530 --> 00:11:17,079
bring this to the fore in a really cool

269
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:19,540
way because you do have this super great

270
00:11:26,699 --> 00:11:21,970
background in computer game develop and

271
00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:26,709
in AI and that's this idea that you only

272
00:11:33,050 --> 00:11:29,740
render what you need and then you do a

273
00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:33,060
fantastic job of linking that back to

274
00:11:39,569 --> 00:11:36,700
like physics like the most important

275
00:11:41,940 --> 00:11:39,579
experiment in quantum physics ever you

276
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:41,950
know like the double-slit collapse the

277
00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:45,310
wavefunction thing tell us you

278
00:11:51,090 --> 00:11:46,720
beautifully linked those who together

279
00:11:52,829 --> 00:11:51,100
tell us about that yeah you know one of

280
00:11:53,970 --> 00:11:52,839
the reasons I wrote this book and and

281
00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:53,980
you know about a third of the book is

282
00:11:58,530 --> 00:11:55,630
about the technology about a third is

283
00:12:00,240 --> 00:11:58,540
about physics including what we're

284
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:00,250
talking about here and a third is about

285
00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:02,410
religions and consciousness and we can

286
00:12:06,630 --> 00:12:04,390
talk about that in a minute but you know

287
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:06,640
when I look at the really big mysteries

288
00:12:11,069 --> 00:12:09,250
in quantum physics the question that

289
00:12:13,650 --> 00:12:11,079
doesn't get answered is why do these

290
00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:13,660
exist right and so you know with the

291
00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:15,040
idea of the double slit experiment

292
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:17,980
there's this idea that a particle will

293
00:12:22,319 --> 00:12:19,930
go through one slit or the other but you

294
00:12:24,750 --> 00:12:22,329
don't know that until somebody is there

295
00:12:26,220 --> 00:12:24,760
to observe it and probably a better way

296
00:12:27,930 --> 00:12:26,230
to explain that is through Schrodinger's

297
00:12:31,170 --> 00:12:27,940
cat right the cat is either alive or

298
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:31,180
dead and common sense tells us that it's

299
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:33,250
one or the other but quantum physics

300
00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:35,290
tells us it's both

301
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:38,529
until and unless somebody actually opens

302
00:12:44,340 --> 00:12:41,410
up the box to look at that cat right and

303
00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:44,350
so that reminded me a lot of video games

304
00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:47,290
and how we develop video games so if you

305
00:12:52,139 --> 00:12:48,790
were to ask a video game developer in

306
00:12:55,610 --> 00:12:52,149
the 80s can you render a fully 3d world

307
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:55,620
like World of Warcraft or like fortnight

308
00:13:01,050 --> 00:12:58,240
or like Call of Duty and the answer is

309
00:13:03,689 --> 00:13:01,060
no there isn't enough computing power to

310
00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:03,699
render all of those pixels and to keep

311
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:05,560
track of every single one of those on

312
00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:09,040
you know the 286s or whatever laptops

313
00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:11,529
are we had back in those days and yet

314
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,310
today we have fully 3d virtual worlds

315
00:13:19,889 --> 00:13:17,440
that are rendered on your laptop or are

316
00:13:21,540 --> 00:13:19,899
rendered within goggles and the reason

317
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:21,550
we can do that is because of

318
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:24,250
optimization and one of the first games

319
00:13:29,579 --> 00:13:27,490
to really do this was doom back in the

320
00:13:31,379 --> 00:13:29,589
1990's which became popular in college

321
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:31,389
campuses and if you look at doom you'll

322
00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:33,370
see it's a first-person perspective and

323
00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:35,769
they shift to the left or right so they

324
00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:38,800
optimize and they only render those

325
00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:41,620
pixels which can be observed by your

326
00:13:47,009 --> 00:13:44,380
avatar so that is the golden rule for

327
00:13:49,139 --> 00:13:47,019
optimization which allows for what I

328
00:13:51,870 --> 00:13:49,149
what we call conditional rendering in

329
00:13:53,249 --> 00:13:51,880
the world of video games now looking at

330
00:13:56,999 --> 00:13:53,259
it you know as a video game designer

331
00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:57,009
that's a lot like what quantum

332
00:14:03,150 --> 00:13:59,920
indeterminacy is like in the physical

333
00:14:06,389 --> 00:14:03,160
world I mean why do things only get

334
00:14:08,610 --> 00:14:06,399
rendered when they're observed right why

335
00:14:11,009 --> 00:14:08,620
is it that the the particle makes a

336
00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:11,019
decision at some point when somebody

337
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:13,240
looks at the interference pattern and

338
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:15,610
only then has it gone through one slit

339
00:14:21,329 --> 00:14:18,730
or the other well and so you know it

340
00:14:24,629 --> 00:14:21,339
seems like the golden rule in quantum

341
00:14:27,780 --> 00:14:24,639
physics is only render pieces of the

342
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:27,790
world which can be observed so so that's

343
00:14:33,090 --> 00:14:30,250
one of the big linkages you know that I

344
00:14:35,309 --> 00:14:33,100
like to talk about um so if a tree falls

345
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:35,319
in the forest and no one is there well

346
00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:38,230
we wouldn't render the sound of the tree

347
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:40,630
so there's kind of no need to go there

348
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:42,850
right right exactly

349
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:45,370
so there's this idea of the rendered

350
00:14:50,460 --> 00:14:48,490
world and then there's this idea of

351
00:14:52,199 --> 00:14:50,470
in the cloud so there might be some

352
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:52,209
information about that tree in the cloud

353
00:14:57,660 --> 00:14:54,880
but if nobody has logged into that

354
00:14:59,970 --> 00:14:57,670
particular scene in the video game right

355
00:15:01,350 --> 00:14:59,980
then there's no reason to render it so

356
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:01,360
this brings up an actually bigger

357
00:15:07,949 --> 00:15:04,510
question which is is there a shared

358
00:15:10,019 --> 00:15:07,959
rendered world that we are all seeing at

359
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:10,029
the same time and you know one of the

360
00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:11,410
pictures I provide in the book is a

361
00:15:16,139 --> 00:15:13,630
picture from a game in the 80s called

362
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:16,149
King's Quest and King's Quest was kind

363
00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:18,399
of a 2d adventure game and what happens

364
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:20,860
is all the render all the pixels of

365
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:23,110
every scene are there on disk

366
00:15:26,490 --> 00:15:24,730
they've already been rendered and when

367
00:15:28,590 --> 00:15:26,500
you move your character around they just

368
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:28,600
you just move over the pixels and you

369
00:15:32,699 --> 00:15:30,730
show the next set of pixels well that

370
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:32,709
was how we used to do video games and

371
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:35,920
that was very memory intensive now we

372
00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:38,170
don't have a shared rendered world we

373
00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:39,670
only render the part that you're seeing

374
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:41,500
and we only render the part that

375
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:42,910
somebody else is seeing from their

376
00:15:47,519 --> 00:15:45,130
computer so each of us has a rendering

377
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:47,529
device which is our computer or our

378
00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:50,110
phone and it's kind of like you and I

379
00:15:54,990 --> 00:15:52,300
having this conversation right and we're

380
00:15:56,460 --> 00:15:55,000
not in the same room and yet it seems

381
00:15:58,769 --> 00:15:56,470
like we're having a conversation

382
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:58,779
because each of our machines is

383
00:16:02,819 --> 00:16:01,120
rendering a set of pixels based on

384
00:16:05,190 --> 00:16:02,829
information that's being sent from the

385
00:16:07,079 --> 00:16:05,200
server now the materialist point of view

386
00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:07,089
is that there is a shared rendered world

387
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:09,430
right that the pixels of the world are

388
00:16:14,010 --> 00:16:11,680
already there and we just move around it

389
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:14,020
and the big mysteries in quantum physics

390
00:16:18,329 --> 00:16:15,760
are saying is that that's not

391
00:16:21,569 --> 00:16:18,339
necessarily the case and we don't know

392
00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:21,579
why but so much of computer science and

393
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:22,950
video game development is about

394
00:16:27,510 --> 00:16:25,690
optimization and compression and it

395
00:16:29,699 --> 00:16:27,520
turns out you know these are really good

396
00:16:30,650 --> 00:16:29,709
explanations for why these things might

397
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:30,660
actually exist

398
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:33,490
that's fantastic and it leads into this

399
00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:36,010
whole question of materialism versus

400
00:16:40,290 --> 00:16:38,620
idealism philosophically but it's just

401
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:40,300
the same questions we've been talking

402
00:16:45,210 --> 00:16:42,310
about apparently have 200 shows on

403
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:45,220
skeptic Oh about consciousness but what

404
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:47,770
you're really bringing to the table I

405
00:16:51,630 --> 00:16:49,690
think is this fresh perspective that

406
00:16:54,170 --> 00:16:51,640
people are already giving a sense of

407
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:54,180
that when we look at it from this

408
00:17:00,720 --> 00:16:57,010
cutting edge AI artificial intelligence

409
00:17:02,190 --> 00:17:00,730
information systems perspective I swear

410
00:17:04,530 --> 00:17:02,200
you almost make me one

411
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:04,540
come back around and re-examine

412
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:06,610
materialism even though I think I

413
00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:08,400
already know that it's kind of

414
00:17:13,199 --> 00:17:10,900
completely out the window and it's been

415
00:17:15,810 --> 00:17:13,209
falsified by every experiment that's

416
00:17:18,060 --> 00:17:15,820
ever been done I mean every experiment

417
00:17:20,370 --> 00:17:18,070
that's ever been done on the double-slit

418
00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:20,380
experiment is confirming of it right

419
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:22,660
there's no disconfirming experiments so

420
00:17:26,310 --> 00:17:24,400
they run it one way then they run it

421
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:26,320
another way and then they reflect it

422
00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:28,480
over everything they do it always comes

423
00:17:34,530 --> 00:17:30,670
out the same way it's just really really

424
00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:34,540
hard to accept and I'm wondering if at

425
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:37,600
the end of the day do you really come

426
00:17:43,260 --> 00:17:40,720
around to being friendly to the

427
00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:43,270
materialist idea or as this quote

428
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:46,030
suggests quote from your book the most

429
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:48,610
important aspect of the simulation

430
00:17:55,260 --> 00:17:52,210
hypothesis may not be scientific at all

431
00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:55,270
and what I took that to mean is if we

432
00:18:00,360 --> 00:17:58,210
really take this stuff seriously then it

433
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:00,370
brings us to the point of whether we can

434
00:18:07,230 --> 00:18:03,850
really measure anything at all and if we

435
00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:07,240
can't measure anything then isn't

436
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:11,280
science kind of obsolete it in a way

437
00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:14,410
well you know I view science as trying

438
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:16,900
to discover the rules of the physics

439
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:19,510
engine of the game right and when we

440
00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:21,310
make video games you know we have a

441
00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:23,230
rendering engine we have a physics

442
00:18:27,540 --> 00:18:25,000
engine that controls how you move and

443
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:27,550
there's some kind of a design or layout

444
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:30,610
that's inherent in the system and so you

445
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:32,530
know I view most scientists still

446
00:18:36,540 --> 00:18:34,240
working on trying to discover those

447
00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:36,550
rules but they haven't necessarily asked

448
00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:39,220
the big questions right and you even

449
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:41,590
within quantum physics there's the the

450
00:18:45,210 --> 00:18:43,450
famous quote I just shut up and

451
00:18:47,730 --> 00:18:45,220
calculator I don't try to think about

452
00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:47,740
what it means and you know the double

453
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:51,520
slit experiment in various versions gets

454
00:18:55,950 --> 00:18:54,010
weirder and weirder and from my

455
00:18:59,010 --> 00:18:55,960
perspective one of the weirdest aspects

456
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:59,020
of it is the delayed choice experiment

457
00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:00,880
right which is this idea that it's not

458
00:19:04,530 --> 00:19:02,080
just a matter of whether it went through

459
00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:04,540
slit a or slip B but something else

460
00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:06,700
happens down the road another choice

461
00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:10,030
that happens in the future and you know

462
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:12,190
probably a better way to explain this is

463
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:14,890
if you have light from a star coming or

464
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:16,410
a galaxy coming

465
00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:18,210
there's a black hole in the middle does

466
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:19,950
the light go to the left or the right of

467
00:19:24,170 --> 00:19:22,410
the black hole well if that black hole

468
00:19:26,420 --> 00:19:24,180
is a thousand light years away from us

469
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:26,430
that decision was made a thousand years

470
00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:29,310
ago but the delayed choice experiment is

471
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:32,430
telling us that it doesn't actually get

472
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,250
made until there's an observer looking

473
00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:37,440
at the light so now you have this

474
00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:39,840
situation where it's not just a matter

475
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:43,670
of slit a or slit B but the whole past

476
00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:47,610
can be changed from today from the

477
00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:50,190
present moment right and so this sounds

478
00:19:54,410 --> 00:19:51,960
you know much more like what the Mystics

479
00:19:56,030 --> 00:19:54,420
have been telling us all along that the

480
00:19:57,770 --> 00:19:56,040
present moment is the only one that

481
00:20:00,620 --> 00:19:57,780
exists and the consciousness is

482
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:00,630
fundamental but what I like about the

483
00:20:06,050 --> 00:20:03,120
simulation hypothesis is that it

484
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:06,060
provides a bridge between the

485
00:20:11,660 --> 00:20:08,730
materialist world view and the world

486
00:20:13,730 --> 00:20:11,670
view of the Mystics and people who think

487
00:20:15,890 --> 00:20:13,740
that consciousness is fundamental and

488
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:15,900
that's why you know I'm glad you the

489
00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:17,130
first thing you brought up was this

490
00:20:22,580 --> 00:20:19,790
distinction between neo and Agent Smith

491
00:20:24,410 --> 00:20:22,590
because that really is the fundamental

492
00:20:27,610 --> 00:20:24,420
tension that I tried to explore in this

493
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:27,620
book is that you know is consciousness

494
00:20:34,670 --> 00:20:32,010
just reproduction of neurons which in

495
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:34,680
which case they can be any consciousness

496
00:20:39,260 --> 00:20:36,960
can be reproduced or is it in fact a

497
00:20:41,330 --> 00:20:39,270
conscious entity outside that's playing

498
00:20:42,860 --> 00:20:41,340
a role or playing a game but that's

499
00:20:45,230 --> 00:20:42,870
something that I can discuss you know

500
00:20:46,790 --> 00:20:45,240
with physicists and people at MIT and I

501
00:20:49,820 --> 00:20:46,800
can discuss it with Buddhist monks and

502
00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:49,830
it's got that with you know biblical

503
00:20:55,610 --> 00:20:53,220
scholars as well because there's lots of

504
00:20:58,220 --> 00:20:55,620
aspects to AI and this idea that the

505
00:21:00,590 --> 00:20:58,230
world around us isn't quite the real

506
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:00,600
world right that perhaps there is

507
00:21:07,010 --> 00:21:04,710
another world that we cannot see yeah

508
00:21:13,010 --> 00:21:07,020
you can discuss it with ambrus because

509
00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:13,020
you like to play nice master because all

510
00:21:17,660 --> 00:21:15,000
the experiments in all the evidence

511
00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:17,670
points in one direction and I you know I

512
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:19,380
mentioned to you that I just had an

513
00:21:25,790 --> 00:21:22,320
interview not too long ago with Donald

514
00:21:28,550 --> 00:21:25,800
Hoffman who is of course a very very

515
00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:28,560
skilled and accomplished physicist and

516
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:30,480
he's kind of more direct you know and I

517
00:21:34,730 --> 00:21:32,250
always like this quote guy up on the

518
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:34,740
screen you know Stephen Hawking who

519
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:36,690
famously said at a Google conference

520
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:38,610
that philosophers have not kept up with

521
00:21:44,450 --> 00:21:41,250
the science and their art is dead and I

522
00:21:48,350 --> 00:21:44,460
think what Don Hoffman and really

523
00:21:50,750 --> 00:21:48,360
everyone in Syre search and near-death

524
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:50,760
experience research and cutting-edge

525
00:21:55,940 --> 00:21:53,520
consciousness research has told us for

526
00:21:57,950 --> 00:21:55,950
the at least the last 20 years is that

527
00:22:02,510 --> 00:21:57,960
materialist scientists have not kept up

528
00:22:06,410 --> 00:22:02,520
with the art and that their art is dead

529
00:22:08,450 --> 00:22:06,420
you know because like on this show one

530
00:22:11,810 --> 00:22:08,460
things we've done is examine near-death

531
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:11,820
experience every near-death experience

532
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:13,770
researcher serious near-death experience

533
00:22:19,430 --> 00:22:16,410
researchers people who publish in major

534
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:19,440
medical journals and publish in major

535
00:22:24,290 --> 00:22:21,690
peer-reviewed psychology journals they

536
00:22:25,910 --> 00:22:24,300
all come to the same conclusion the one

537
00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:25,920
that I have up on the screen here from

538
00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:29,120
dr. Sam Varney who's one of the leading

539
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:31,470
resuscitation experts in the world I

540
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:33,090
mean he's a doctor that's his full-time

541
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:36,000
job is resuscitation they kind of on the

542
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:39,330
side does near-death experience research

543
00:22:45,470 --> 00:22:42,770
and the conclusion is the same is that

544
00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:45,480
consciousness seems to in some way we

545
00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:49,020
don't totally understand survive bodily

546
00:22:57,770 --> 00:22:53,520
death so I mean aren't we really just

547
00:23:00,110 --> 00:22:57,780
kind of propping up these materialists

548
00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:00,120
because we don't want it because they

549
00:23:04,340 --> 00:23:01,950
own the mic right now that is the

550
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:04,350
dominant paradigm in number two we're

551
00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:06,930
just not comfortable none of us are

552
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:09,510
comfortable with the implications of all

553
00:23:17,030 --> 00:23:13,850
this which are that space-time is doomed

554
00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:17,040
idea that there is this we're living

555
00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:18,780
this linear space-time well that's out

556
00:23:22,910 --> 00:23:21,120
the window neo-darwinism no one ever

557
00:23:25,490 --> 00:23:22,920
talks about it but that's completely out

558
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:25,500
the window with all this to science as

559
00:23:29,060 --> 00:23:27,090
we know what is out the window it's

560
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:29,070
doomed because we can no longer measure

561
00:23:34,430 --> 00:23:31,170
there's no longer really anything to

562
00:23:37,670 --> 00:23:34,440
measure and as Don Hoffman says you know

563
00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:37,680
quite directly in his TED talk that's

564
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:39,000
got three million

565
00:23:47,210 --> 00:23:44,090
use reality is doomed so are we kind of

566
00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:47,220
propping these guys up because that's

567
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:51,180
what playing nice means right yeah

568
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:52,890
that's one way to describe it I mean I

569
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:55,200
would describe it also though as a way

570
00:23:59,810 --> 00:23:58,080
to provide a bridge and to provide an

571
00:24:02,180 --> 00:23:59,820
understanding I mean I think one of the

572
00:24:05,870 --> 00:24:02,190
reasons why is even in your quote you

573
00:24:07,820 --> 00:24:05,880
said you know the self exists beyond

574
00:24:10,430 --> 00:24:07,830
death in some ways that we don't quite

575
00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:10,440
understand right and so you know I think

576
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:13,140
the current paradigm you know it reminds

577
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:15,600
me a little bit of you know scientists

578
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:17,490
used to say that there's no way that

579
00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:19,970
meteorites could fall from the sky and

580
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:22,500
scientists said that's because there are

581
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:24,480
no rocks in the sky therefore there's

582
00:24:28,150 --> 00:24:26,250
obviously no way rocks could fall from

583
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:28,160
the sky even though there were many

584
00:24:32,810 --> 00:24:30,840
people that had seen rocks fall from the

585
00:24:34,430 --> 00:24:32,820
sky and there was even evidence where

586
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:34,440
people said here's a rock that fell from

587
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:36,720
the sky but they had no way back then

588
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:38,310
they didn't have the tools to verify

589
00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:40,860
that right so eventually there was a

590
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:43,710
huge meteor shower over Paris and at

591
00:24:46,580 --> 00:24:45,210
least the scientist said you know one of

592
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:46,590
the universities there were forced to

593
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:48,000
admit that rocks were falling from the

594
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,770
sky and so it's like when something is

595
00:24:53,870 --> 00:24:51,840
outside the current paradigm people have

596
00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:53,880
a hard time getting there I think the

597
00:24:59,510 --> 00:24:55,430
current paradigm is very much like stuck

598
00:25:01,880 --> 00:24:59,520
in the 1980s world of PCs and there's a

599
00:25:03,860 --> 00:25:01,890
famous quote from Steve Jobs where he

600
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:03,870
didn't want to put a network connector

601
00:25:07,910 --> 00:25:06,210
in the first Macintosh because he said

602
00:25:09,860 --> 00:25:07,920
who would want to be connected to their

603
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:09,870
office when they're at home right so

604
00:25:14,330 --> 00:25:11,520
it's like each one of us is a separate

605
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:14,340
PC that's not connected but what happens

606
00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:16,260
with technology is it's gotten much more

607
00:25:20,030 --> 00:25:17,940
advanced than we realized that by

608
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:20,040
connecting these we can come up with

609
00:25:23,450 --> 00:25:21,600
something much more powerful we can do

610
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:23,460
many things that we couldn't do and so

611
00:25:28,340 --> 00:25:26,370
getting back to you know if nature is

612
00:25:31,610 --> 00:25:28,350
always moving towards more

613
00:25:33,410 --> 00:25:31,620
sophistication than probably just as we

614
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:33,420
took our computers and made them network

615
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:35,970
there is a networking element to life

616
00:25:42,050 --> 00:25:39,360
itself that we haven't yet discovered so

617
00:25:43,790 --> 00:25:42,060
but I think you know the bridge really

618
00:25:46,790 --> 00:25:43,800
is information all right

619
00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:46,800
so in the in the world of the simulation

620
00:25:50,450 --> 00:25:48,600
hypothesis I like to say that you know

621
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:50,460
the physical world is a world of

622
00:25:52,940 --> 00:25:52,170
information and I think that agrees with

623
00:25:54,110 --> 00:25:52,950
what

624
00:25:56,570 --> 00:25:54,120
you know Donnell Hoffman would say I

625
00:26:00,409 --> 00:25:56,580
like his analogy that if you have a

626
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:00,419
desktop you'd see a file but really that

627
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:02,510
file doesn't exist as like a blue square

628
00:26:07,159 --> 00:26:04,799
that's just how it happens to be

629
00:26:08,990 --> 00:26:07,169
rendered you know within your agent of

630
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:09,000
consciousness it really exists as a

631
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:11,279
series of bits and as a set of

632
00:26:16,820 --> 00:26:13,919
information and I think that you know

633
00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:16,830
the more science looks for matter right

634
00:26:21,950 --> 00:26:19,080
they keep opening the you know they open

635
00:26:23,149 --> 00:26:21,960
atom and it's 99.9% space they look for

636
00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:23,159
the electrons and find they're not

637
00:26:27,409 --> 00:26:25,260
really there and then they go inside the

638
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:27,419
protons and the neutrons and at the

639
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:29,130
bottom level you know what they're

640
00:26:34,159 --> 00:26:31,529
getting is information right and and

641
00:26:36,049 --> 00:26:34,169
there's a famous quote from a physicist

642
00:26:38,509 --> 00:26:36,059
named John Wheeler that I use in my book

643
00:26:41,509 --> 00:26:38,519
which is he coined the phrase it from

644
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:41,519
bit right that everything that is in it

645
00:26:47,139 --> 00:26:44,690
that is a physical object is actually a

646
00:26:49,460 --> 00:26:47,149
representation of bits of information

647
00:26:52,399 --> 00:26:49,470
right and I think that that is the

648
00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:52,409
bridge so computer science becomes in a

649
00:26:56,750 --> 00:26:54,750
way the bridge between the materialist

650
00:26:58,610 --> 00:26:56,760
point of view and sort of the

651
00:27:01,519 --> 00:26:58,620
consciousness point of view because what

652
00:27:03,649 --> 00:27:01,529
we think of as something real just

653
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:03,659
doesn't exist but gets rendered for us

654
00:27:08,690 --> 00:27:05,760
you know when when we need it for

655
00:27:11,659 --> 00:27:08,700
whatever reason but even people in

656
00:27:13,610 --> 00:27:11,669
consciousness haven't quite been able to

657
00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:13,620
explain the nature of this shared

658
00:27:17,180 --> 00:27:16,110
reality right so I think this is where

659
00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:17,190
things become you know slightly

660
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:19,710
complicated but I was very intrigued by

661
00:27:23,899 --> 00:27:21,289
near-death researchers and in fact

662
00:27:26,419 --> 00:27:23,909
during this writing of this book I

663
00:27:28,129 --> 00:27:26,429
interviewed dannion brinkley who you may

664
00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:28,139
know of who wrote saved by light he was

665
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:31,260
struck by lightning and you know he said

666
00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:33,090
that one of the things that happened to

667
00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:35,580
him after he was dead was that he had a

668
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:38,750
life review and he called it a panoramic

669
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:42,590
360 life review where he saw in vivid

670
00:27:48,649 --> 00:27:44,850
three-dimensional detail every event

671
00:27:50,389 --> 00:27:48,659
from his entire life I accept that he

672
00:27:52,909 --> 00:27:50,399
had to see it from the point of view of

673
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:52,919
the people that he had done things to

674
00:27:56,629 --> 00:27:54,240
and he was in the military so he

675
00:27:58,610 --> 00:27:56,639
literally had shot people and so he had

676
00:28:00,889 --> 00:27:58,620
to experience what that was like from

677
00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:00,899
the other point of view you know I'm a

678
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,340
video game designer so I like to say

679
00:28:06,860 --> 00:28:04,799
well how would this work if this is in

680
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:06,870
fact the case and the life review has

681
00:28:09,260 --> 00:28:07,110
been

682
00:28:12,049 --> 00:28:09,270
reported by many not actually all but

683
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:12,059
many near-death experiencers and in

684
00:28:16,910 --> 00:28:14,460
order to do that you have you would have

685
00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:16,920
to record everything that's been going

686
00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:19,590
on and well turns out in video games we

687
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:21,150
do that all the time there's a whole

688
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:23,490
industry now of streaming on twitch and

689
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:26,640
YouTube eSports has become like the the

690
00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:29,250
new sports right people under 30 don't

691
00:28:32,780 --> 00:28:31,260
really watch football as much as they

692
00:28:36,049 --> 00:28:32,790
watch people playing competitive video

693
00:28:38,419 --> 00:28:36,059
games and in one of my startups we would

694
00:28:40,250 --> 00:28:38,429
take a three-dimensional game like

695
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:40,260
League of Legends or counter-strike Oh

696
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:42,090
csgo is a good one since we were just

697
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:43,710
talking about shooting someone where

698
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,120
your character might actually shoot

699
00:28:49,850 --> 00:28:47,760
someone and we took that and we recorded

700
00:28:51,289 --> 00:28:49,860
it in 3d even though I was playing it on

701
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:51,299
a 2d screen and you're playing it on a

702
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:53,490
2d screen and then you put on in virtual

703
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:56,130
reality glasses and we could put you at

704
00:29:01,789 --> 00:29:00,240
any point inside the game so you could

705
00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:01,799
literally see what it was like to be the

706
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:04,140
person that you shot right now we don't

707
00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:07,440
have emotions in our video games but it

708
00:29:12,740 --> 00:29:10,110
provides I think a pretty good model for

709
00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:12,750
how this material reality might actually

710
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:15,830
work and how some of the things that

711
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:17,490
people who have been studying

712
00:29:21,650 --> 00:29:19,410
consciousness and needed the experiences

713
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:21,660
have been telling us and how those might

714
00:29:24,860 --> 00:29:23,370
work and and this is where it ties to

715
00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:24,870
religions and some people get upset that

716
00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:27,510
I included a whole section in my book on

717
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:31,049
religions and of course in the in the

718
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,250
Eastern traditions you don't even have

719
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:34,320
to draw an analogy right basically

720
00:29:38,390 --> 00:29:35,970
they're telling us that we exist outside

721
00:29:40,250 --> 00:29:38,400
of the physical world you download into

722
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:40,260
a body you play a role for a period of

723
00:29:46,669 --> 00:29:43,200
time you upload out and then you have a

724
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:46,679
set of information karma that's stored

725
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:48,960
what happens to that information

726
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:51,450
well it's used to create situations for

727
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:53,910
you in your next world and so you go

728
00:29:57,740 --> 00:29:55,710
back into the physical world is in

729
00:29:59,900 --> 00:29:57,750
another role and so you've got kind of

730
00:30:02,930 --> 00:29:59,910
Buddha's endless wheel is better

731
00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:02,940
described as an algorithm turns out we

732
00:30:07,390 --> 00:30:06,270
don't need the Lords of karma we just

733
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:07,400
need a very sophisticated

734
00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:10,650
computer-generated reality and in the

735
00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:12,720
Islamic traditions there's this idea of

736
00:30:16,580 --> 00:30:14,580
recording angels and in the Christianity

737
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:16,590
and Judaism as well I think I have a

738
00:30:21,770 --> 00:30:19,290
picture of you know recording

739
00:30:23,210 --> 00:30:21,780
Angeles statue in Washington DC we're

740
00:30:25,580 --> 00:30:23,220
supposed to be writing down everything

741
00:30:28,010 --> 00:30:25,590
that happens in your life well we don't

742
00:30:30,260 --> 00:30:28,020
need 14 million angels writing down all

743
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:30,270
our good deeds and our bad deeds what we

744
00:30:35,660 --> 00:30:33,210
really need is just AI to record what's

745
00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:35,670
happening inside this game so that it

746
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:38,190
can be played back and so you know my

747
00:30:41,660 --> 00:30:40,170
approach to this was how does all this

748
00:30:43,310 --> 00:30:41,670
work how can we come up with an

749
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:43,320
explanation that we can at least

750
00:30:49,790 --> 00:30:47,730
understand well I love all that and you

751
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:49,800
and Don Hoffman might be the white

752
00:30:55,850 --> 00:30:53,130
knights in this whole process but I'm

753
00:30:57,980 --> 00:30:55,860
not so sure that there everyone is

754
00:31:01,400 --> 00:30:57,990
playing the role of the of the white

755
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:01,410
knight in terms of the bridge to the

756
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:03,570
more enlightened kind of thing but I did

757
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:05,130
want to come back and touch on this idea

758
00:31:10,190 --> 00:31:08,490
of karma and AI and you wrote a very

759
00:31:12,020 --> 00:31:10,200
excellent article I don't know how you

760
00:31:13,970 --> 00:31:12,030
do everything you do I don't I can crank

761
00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:13,980
out this stuff but it's amazing but

762
00:31:20,170 --> 00:31:15,840
here's an article you wrote religion and

763
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:20,180
the simulation hypothesis is God an AI

764
00:31:24,530 --> 00:31:22,290
but you know where I kind of pulled up

765
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:24,540
short on this is don't we get into the

766
00:31:31,670 --> 00:31:28,110
problem of kind of infinite regress and

767
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:31,680
Turtles all the way down I mean if I

768
00:31:36,290 --> 00:31:33,090
look at it kind of from a different

769
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:36,300
perspective if there are rules if there

770
00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:39,510
is karma karma is rules for a computer

771
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:44,460
gamer like you and rules suggest a moral

772
00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:46,890
imperative and a moral imperative

773
00:31:52,460 --> 00:31:50,190
suggest a hierarchy of consciousness yet

774
00:31:56,540 --> 00:31:52,470
a hierarchy of consciousness suggests

775
00:32:00,460 --> 00:31:56,550
God so I'm not sure we're in there

776
00:32:03,950 --> 00:32:00,470
there's any room for AI other than as a

777
00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:03,960
you know tool for God to kind of keep

778
00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:07,590
tracking notes or something yeah well I

779
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:09,960
mean that's kind of how I presented it

780
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:12,330
not so much that the title was is God in

781
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:16,050
AI but really it's more are a lot of the

782
00:32:20,750 --> 00:32:17,250
things that the religions have been

783
00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:20,760
telling us you know implemented through

784
00:32:27,860 --> 00:32:24,300
some AI I mean if you think of the term

785
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:27,870
angel angel means messenger right and in

786
00:32:34,260 --> 00:32:30,310
computer science we have this we use an

787
00:32:37,020 --> 00:32:34,270
the daemon which is used for processes

788
00:32:39,330 --> 00:32:37,030
that run and so angels are supposed to

789
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:39,340
be beings outside of the material world

790
00:32:43,290 --> 00:32:41,440
who are watching us and who are

791
00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:43,300
recording things and perhaps you have

792
00:32:46,770 --> 00:32:45,040
this idea of guardian angels so you have

793
00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:46,780
all of these different aspects of beings

794
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:51,240
that are not in the physical world and

795
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:54,610
so the simulation hypothesis actually

796
00:33:00,570 --> 00:32:57,130
makes that so that these angels might in

797
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:00,580
fact just be AI and you do get into this

798
00:33:06,030 --> 00:33:03,250
idea of regress sometimes right so if we

799
00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:06,040
can create a simulation we would appear

800
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:08,590
to be gods you know to those people

801
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:11,170
inside the simulation because we can

802
00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:13,930
change the rules of that simulation and

803
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:16,180
we can make things appear you know in

804
00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:19,540
midair for example and the people in the

805
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:22,300
scene wow that's a miracle like where

806
00:33:25,710 --> 00:33:24,100
did that thing come from it wasn't there

807
00:33:28,350 --> 00:33:25,720
a minute ago we do it all the time in

808
00:33:30,270 --> 00:33:28,360
video games right in fact we even render

809
00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:30,280
do conditional rendering based upon

810
00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:32,950
their level so if you and I are inside a

811
00:33:38,190 --> 00:33:34,900
scene and you're a level 2 character and

812
00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:38,200
I'm a level 30 character the server can

813
00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:40,120
decide that a level 30 character will

814
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:42,430
see this being or angel and a level 2

815
00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:44,650
character will not see this because

816
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:46,300
they're all being rendered inside each

817
00:33:51,270 --> 00:33:47,920
of our computers which is kind of like

818
00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:51,280
us rendering in our brains or as part of

819
00:33:55,410 --> 00:33:54,220
our own consciousness right so so there

820
00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:55,420
is this idea that what appears

821
00:34:00,930 --> 00:33:58,210
supernatural to people that are stuck

822
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:00,940
inside the simulation might actually

823
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:03,490
just be rules that are being determined

824
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:05,500
by someone outside the simulation now

825
00:34:09,420 --> 00:34:06,910
the question of levels isn't an

826
00:34:11,010 --> 00:34:09,430
interesting one because if you say well

827
00:34:11,970 --> 00:34:11,020
there's a lot more outside this could it

828
00:34:14,910 --> 00:34:11,980
be that there's another simulation

829
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:14,920
outside of that right and then you get

830
00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:18,910
back to this I mean you can't you can't

831
00:34:23,250 --> 00:34:21,250
not ask that question I mean that is the

832
00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:23,260
first question that pops up is the

833
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:25,420
problem of infinite regress right so

834
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:27,610
it's Turtles all the way down well it's

835
00:34:30,390 --> 00:34:28,960
a simulation of what well it's a

836
00:34:33,150 --> 00:34:30,400
simulation of the simulation of a

837
00:34:34,410 --> 00:34:33,160
simulation of a simulation but then as

838
00:34:36,450 --> 00:34:34,420
soon as you get into that game

839
00:34:38,910 --> 00:34:36,460
eventually you're saying that there

840
00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:38,920
you're talking about god then you know

841
00:34:43,180 --> 00:34:40,480
so it's like it doesn't matter how many

842
00:34:44,859 --> 00:34:43,190
intermediate steps to really have and

843
00:34:47,230 --> 00:34:44,869
that's the other problem with this base

844
00:34:49,089 --> 00:34:47,240
reality that kind of creeps into this

845
00:34:50,619 --> 00:34:49,099
yeah I always call it backdoor

846
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:50,629
materialism you know it's kind of like

847
00:34:54,399 --> 00:34:52,399
okay we're gonna get away from

848
00:34:56,619 --> 00:34:54,409
materialism until we need it then we're

849
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:56,629
gonna cut backdoor it in here again

850
00:35:01,650 --> 00:34:58,490
it's like no if consciousness is

851
00:35:05,069 --> 00:35:01,660
fundamental then all of this is in

852
00:35:07,150 --> 00:35:05,079
consciousness so the simulation is in

853
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:07,160
consciousness the rules are in

854
00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:10,010
consciousness God is in consciousness

855
00:35:16,930 --> 00:35:12,560
it's not we can never be outside of it

856
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:16,940
if were if it's fundamental right but so

857
00:35:21,250 --> 00:35:18,770
you know that's one way to think of it

858
00:35:23,650 --> 00:35:21,260
is God is in consciousness but another

859
00:35:26,349 --> 00:35:23,660
way to think of it is if you if you take

860
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:26,359
the RPG version right because obviously

861
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:29,089
if you take the NPC version you're

862
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:30,770
limited by computing power and you can

863
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:33,410
have so many versions simulations within

864
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:35,119
simulations within simulations but in

865
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:38,510
this case if you think the RPG version

866
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:41,810
you know you say okay there's a version

867
00:35:48,309 --> 00:35:45,650
of us that's outside that in in base

868
00:35:49,780 --> 00:35:48,319
reality but if that's the simulation

869
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:49,790
there's another version that's outside

870
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:52,480
in base reality but what is that version

871
00:35:57,309 --> 00:35:54,800
my point is that it becomes less

872
00:35:59,349 --> 00:35:57,319
material not necessarily more material

873
00:36:01,839 --> 00:35:59,359
although you know within a lot of

874
00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:01,849
simulation discussions base reality

875
00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:04,160
means a physical world outside of the

876
00:36:11,140 --> 00:36:06,950
simulated world in the in the RPG

877
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:11,150
version it means who is the entity that

878
00:36:15,970 --> 00:36:13,609
is playing us right so it's more about

879
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:15,980
the consciousness of that entity just

880
00:36:22,210 --> 00:36:18,410
like in the matrix right when neo had

881
00:36:24,250 --> 00:36:22,220
the the wire connected into the back of

882
00:36:26,740 --> 00:36:24,260
his head when he woke up in the pod

883
00:36:29,380 --> 00:36:26,750
right it that was the connection it was

884
00:36:31,630 --> 00:36:29,390
a conscious connection between that

885
00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:31,640
person and another entity and at some

886
00:36:36,670 --> 00:36:33,700
point you get conscious entities and

887
00:36:40,059 --> 00:36:36,680
perhaps that is a better definition of

888
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:40,069
God then what we get in the religions is

889
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:42,530
that pure consciousness is God as

890
00:36:48,069 --> 00:36:43,970
opposed to God is in pure consciousness

891
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:48,079
meaning that each of the individuals are

892
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:50,690
like droplets if pure consciousness is

893
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:52,970
the ocean it is what's playing all of

894
00:36:56,780 --> 00:36:55,609
these characters in the first simulation

895
00:36:58,340 --> 00:36:56,790
and each

896
00:37:00,800 --> 00:36:58,350
them are allowed to go down and

897
00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:00,810
experience things just like people say

898
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:02,700
to me well why would I make a simulation

899
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:05,250
so well why do you play video games we

900
00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:07,770
do it to experience the things that we

901
00:37:12,830 --> 00:37:10,350
cannot experience outside the game right

902
00:37:16,820 --> 00:37:12,840
I mean I can't be flying a dragon and

903
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:16,830
fight you know works in physical reality

904
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:18,720
but I can do it you know inside the

905
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:21,690
fantasy type game or fly spaceships etc

906
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:23,690
and so then the question becomes will

907
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:26,160
what would be the purpose of this video

908
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:28,290
game well now we get into things like

909
00:37:33,260 --> 00:37:31,110
emotions and interactions perhaps things

910
00:37:36,890 --> 00:37:33,270
that are not possible appeared god

911
00:37:38,660 --> 00:37:36,900
forbid we talk about love or emotions or

912
00:37:42,380 --> 00:37:38,670
any writings that don't exist according

913
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:42,390
to a lot of material right but but these

914
00:37:48,620 --> 00:37:45,810
things may in fact I mean I view most

915
00:37:51,290 --> 00:37:48,630
religions as starting when someone

916
00:37:53,390 --> 00:37:51,300
peaked outside the simulation right and

917
00:37:55,340 --> 00:37:53,400
then they came back and they told us

918
00:37:57,470 --> 00:37:55,350
what they saw and it's kind of like the

919
00:37:59,420 --> 00:37:57,480
three blind men and the elephant right

920
00:38:01,310 --> 00:37:59,430
each of them saw a different part of the

921
00:38:03,230 --> 00:38:01,320
elephant and they try to describe it and

922
00:38:05,210 --> 00:38:03,240
so it's like you know a snake which is

923
00:38:07,340 --> 00:38:05,220
the trunk or it's like a tree which is

924
00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:07,350
like a legs or it's like a house which

925
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:10,200
is the body but they all seem to have

926
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:13,850
this idea that the purpose of life is

927
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:16,610
love and to be kind to each other

928
00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:18,810
whereas it gets more intricate in the

929
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:20,790
ideas of karma that you are here to

930
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:23,730
create experiences which then you have

931
00:38:28,820 --> 00:38:26,370
to go and resolve down the road so as I

932
00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:28,830
view it as a tree of quests and

933
00:38:33,050 --> 00:38:31,140
achievements and the more you play the

934
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:33,060
more of these you create for yourself

935
00:38:37,940 --> 00:38:36,210
and so that's what leads to in the

936
00:38:39,980 --> 00:38:37,950
Eastern traditions and now there's

937
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:39,990
actually some debate even in Eastern

938
00:38:44,450 --> 00:38:41,490
traditions between Buddhism and Hinduism

939
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:44,460
in Hinduism there is this idea of a pure

940
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:47,250
eternal soul right which could be the

941
00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:50,640
conscious part that comes in and it

942
00:38:57,050 --> 00:38:53,070
plays different live within the Buddhist

943
00:39:00,800 --> 00:38:57,060
point of view the thing that goes back

944
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:00,810
and forth is not necessarily a soul but

945
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:04,050
a bag of karma if you will so it's a set

946
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:06,510
of information if you think of it is you

947
00:39:10,030 --> 00:39:08,370
keep increasing the size of this file

948
00:39:12,580 --> 00:39:10,040
but then as you remove

949
00:39:15,610 --> 00:39:12,590
from the file eventually it goes down to

950
00:39:17,230 --> 00:39:15,620
zero and it becomes pure back to pure

951
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:17,240
whatever the the you know the

952
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:19,130
original thing was which gets back to

953
00:39:23,830 --> 00:39:21,290
this issue of what is God what is pure

954
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:23,840
consciousness in and of itself but I

955
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:26,330
think that simulate simulated world kind

956
00:39:32,470 --> 00:39:28,070
of better describes how that process

957
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:32,480
works well yeah or at least gives us a

958
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:34,880
new way of kind of looking at it and

959
00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:36,710
exploring it which is really cool

960
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:39,110
because you are certainly you know

961
00:39:43,090 --> 00:39:40,850
hitting on all the main points I mean

962
00:39:44,770 --> 00:39:43,100
even the analogy of the the ocean and

963
00:39:47,860 --> 00:39:44,780
the wave and the droplets and all those

964
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:47,870
things that is the way a lot of people

965
00:39:54,250 --> 00:39:49,910
have offered is the best explanation for

966
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:54,260
what that pure consciousness god spirit

967
00:39:59,650 --> 00:39:57,200
being would be is kind of everything and

968
00:40:02,320 --> 00:39:59,660
that we see the individuated kind of

969
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:02,330
self as these little droplets but I'm

970
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:05,570
still not sure I buy off on the idea

971
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:09,410
that this bridge idea it's gonna work it

972
00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:11,810
seems to me that for all the fun is

973
00:40:18,310 --> 00:40:15,280
where all the action is is over in this

974
00:40:20,110 --> 00:40:18,320
extended consciousness stuff that we're

975
00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:20,120
just not allowed to talk about because

976
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:22,820
it's all taboo and yet it seems the

977
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:25,490
evidence is overwhelming that there's a

978
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:28,370
reality to it I just touched on nd ease

979
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:30,710
because they're safe and we have all

980
00:40:35,170 --> 00:40:32,570
this science published in these great

981
00:40:36,910 --> 00:40:35,180
journals but the evidence for

982
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:36,920
out-of-body experience comes right along

983
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:38,930
with the a near-death experience but it

984
00:40:44,590 --> 00:40:41,210
also extends beyond that after death

985
00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:44,600
communication sigh I always point to dr.

986
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:46,520
Dean Radin zzyx double slit experiment

987
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:49,130
where he said well let's screw all that

988
00:40:53,260 --> 00:40:51,170
let's go right to the endgame here's a

989
00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:53,270
photon beam generator and I'm gonna

990
00:40:58,090 --> 00:40:55,790
bring in an a meditator and tell him to

991
00:40:59,980 --> 00:40:58,100
meditate and change the beam and he's

992
00:41:01,930 --> 00:40:59,990
gonna do it or not do it and lo and

993
00:41:04,750 --> 00:41:01,940
behold he can do it he gets a six sigma

994
00:41:08,110 --> 00:41:04,760
result so the evidence is in all over

995
00:41:11,140 --> 00:41:08,120
the place also with remote viewing our

996
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:11,150
fan men who stare at goats and MKULTRA

997
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:13,760
stuff all the et stuff which at this

998
00:41:19,630 --> 00:41:16,730
point is just I don't know how we we

999
00:41:22,910 --> 00:41:19,640
kind of are even allowed to kind of keep

1000
00:41:24,349 --> 00:41:22,920
that in discussion zone there's

1001
00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:24,359
you know the Department of Defense is

1002
00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:26,760
coming out and throwing the holy holy

1003
00:41:32,569 --> 00:41:28,380
water on it and then we have the whole

1004
00:41:37,220 --> 00:41:32,579
shamanic journeying DMT stuff so is this

1005
00:41:40,579 --> 00:41:37,230
bridge idea really the way to go here

1006
00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:40,589
and is the simulation hypothesis and all

1007
00:41:45,890 --> 00:41:43,920
the great stuff you're offering us is it

1008
00:41:47,569 --> 00:41:45,900
a bridge or is there a chasm there that

1009
00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:47,579
you just have to jump over on the other

1010
00:41:52,190 --> 00:41:49,710
side and then that would lead to the

1011
00:41:54,170 --> 00:41:52,200
next question is is there a reason that

1012
00:41:57,470 --> 00:41:54,180
we're not on the other side I mean what

1013
00:42:00,740 --> 00:41:57,480
I always point to is you know Russell

1014
00:42:03,620 --> 00:42:00,750
Targ and he'll put off @sr I they were

1015
00:42:06,410 --> 00:42:03,630
doing extended consciousness stuff for

1016
00:42:09,650 --> 00:42:06,420
30 years they weren't bound by these

1017
00:42:11,539 --> 00:42:09,660
kind of oh we have to be materialist we

1018
00:42:14,140 --> 00:42:11,549
can and the same with the minutes there

1019
00:42:18,170 --> 00:42:14,150
it goes I mean the cutting edge

1020
00:42:20,329 --> 00:42:18,180
consciousness weaponization has been

1021
00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:20,339
going on for a long time and it's just

1022
00:42:28,010 --> 00:42:23,940
this kind of wink and a nod like oh you

1023
00:42:30,349 --> 00:42:28,020
you guys in academia and in science go

1024
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:30,359
continue on your little materialist way

1025
00:42:34,849 --> 00:42:32,640
kind of thing any thoughts I throw a lot

1026
00:42:36,620 --> 00:42:34,859
on the table there yeah you throw a lot

1027
00:42:39,650 --> 00:42:36,630
there a lot of thoughts about each of

1028
00:42:41,420 --> 00:42:39,660
those areas but I think you know science

1029
00:42:45,799 --> 00:42:41,430
has been built up by having a series of

1030
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:45,809
models right and so we don't have a good

1031
00:42:53,150 --> 00:42:49,910
model to explain how some of these

1032
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:53,160
phenomenon work so let's take ETS for

1033
00:42:57,770 --> 00:42:56,010
example right so if the model is they

1034
00:43:01,400 --> 00:42:57,780
came here on a spaceship from another

1035
00:43:05,359 --> 00:43:01,410
galaxy you know that's where I think a

1036
00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:05,369
lot of regular scientists you know get

1037
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:07,260
lost a little bit and they say oh yeah

1038
00:43:09,799 --> 00:43:08,970
we're sure there's life out there but we

1039
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:09,809
don't see how they could have possibly

1040
00:43:12,980 --> 00:43:11,730
gotten here because we don't know

1041
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:12,990
anything that goes faster than speed of

1042
00:43:17,329 --> 00:43:14,790
light right so again we're caught inside

1043
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:17,339
these models and so in order to move

1044
00:43:21,950 --> 00:43:19,410
science along we need to think of a

1045
00:43:26,359 --> 00:43:21,960
different model now I think one of the

1046
00:43:29,089 --> 00:43:26,369
reasons why the T phenomenon is so weird

1047
00:43:32,450 --> 00:43:29,099
and not accepted is it may actually be

1048
00:43:34,370 --> 00:43:32,460
weirder than that simple explanation so

1049
00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:34,380
you know one of the people that I talked

1050
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:35,760
to you and writing this book was dr.

1051
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:36,720
Jacques Vallee

1052
00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:38,910
right who you know has been around since

1053
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:40,920
the SR I days and was part of Project

1054
00:43:44,770 --> 00:43:42,930
Blue Book back in the day and you know

1055
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:44,780
one of the things he told me was that

1056
00:43:50,780 --> 00:43:47,930
UFOs are not a purely materialist

1057
00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:50,790
phenomenon and they're not purely a

1058
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:52,230
conscious phenomenon they're actually

1059
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:54,089
both and he said there are many

1060
00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:56,880
instances where two people will be

1061
00:44:01,520 --> 00:43:58,740
spending standing next to each other and

1062
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:01,530
one of them will see the UFO and one of

1063
00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:03,690
them will not right so again there's no

1064
00:44:09,020 --> 00:44:05,550
model in the materialist film interview

1065
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:09,030
for how that happy thurr the craft is

1066
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:10,800
there or it's not you can't have a

1067
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:13,890
situation where both are well turns out

1068
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:15,810
if you start thinking about you know

1069
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,170
video games and how they work you can I

1070
00:44:24,650 --> 00:44:21,599
mean I mentioned it earlier if a person

1071
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:24,660
is at level 30 versus level 2 they might

1072
00:44:30,589 --> 00:44:27,420
see the UFO and they might not and so I

1073
00:44:32,809 --> 00:44:30,599
think they're just inexplicable it gets

1074
00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:32,819
to a level of in exclude inexplicable

1075
00:44:39,020 --> 00:44:35,730
'ti to the point where you know many

1076
00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:39,030
scientists will individually admit to

1077
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:41,310
being interested in these things that

1078
00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:44,970
you're talking about but as a group you

1079
00:44:48,950 --> 00:44:46,800
know they seem not not they don't want

1080
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:48,960
to be the first to kind of jump outside

1081
00:44:52,819 --> 00:44:50,970
this paradigm and you know a great

1082
00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:52,829
example of this is because I talked

1083
00:44:56,420 --> 00:44:54,270
about the matrix people ask me all the

1084
00:44:59,210 --> 00:44:56,430
time well you know how do you hack the

1085
00:45:01,550 --> 00:44:59,220
matrix right and I bring up the example

1086
00:45:04,579 --> 00:45:01,560
of the spoon bending from the movie

1087
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:04,589
right where you know that the the little

1088
00:45:10,609 --> 00:45:08,730
monk kid tells neo remember there is no

1089
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:10,619
spoon and that's how you can bend it I

1090
00:45:13,579 --> 00:45:11,760
believe another gentleman who was

1091
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:13,589
involved with SSRI back in the day was

1092
00:45:17,870 --> 00:45:15,839
Jack Hawke and he started to do these

1093
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:17,880
spoon bending parties and you know one

1094
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:19,410
of my favorite stories is when he went

1095
00:45:23,569 --> 00:45:21,810
to Los Alamos and he did this spoon

1096
00:45:25,940 --> 00:45:23,579
bending party with a bunch of physicists

1097
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:25,950
and their wives and he found that none

1098
00:45:30,770 --> 00:45:27,810
of the physicists could bend the spoons

1099
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:30,780
but their wives could now that was

1100
00:45:35,740 --> 00:45:33,839
interesting because turns out it was

1101
00:45:38,089 --> 00:45:35,750
because the physicists were together and

1102
00:45:39,849 --> 00:45:38,099
any one of them individually went to a

1103
00:45:43,370 --> 00:45:39,859
spoon bending party with their wife

1104
00:45:46,130 --> 00:45:43,380
could bend spoon sometimes and so it

1105
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:46,140
becomes this kind of weird Morpho

1106
00:45:49,250 --> 00:45:47,730
genetic field if you will that that

1107
00:45:52,250 --> 00:45:49,260
people are stuck you know

1108
00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:52,260
in this model so I think to get people

1109
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:54,270
there we have to present them with a

1110
00:45:58,970 --> 00:45:56,970
model that might make some sense I mean

1111
00:46:00,320 --> 00:45:58,980
science has been built up and has had a

1112
00:46:03,140 --> 00:46:00,330
lot of successes in the physical world

1113
00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:03,150
right rockets computers all of these

1114
00:46:07,490 --> 00:46:05,460
things because you create models and

1115
00:46:09,380 --> 00:46:07,500
then you validate the models the problem

1116
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:09,390
is I think most scientists say because

1117
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:11,490
it's something that can't be reproduced

1118
00:46:16,220 --> 00:46:13,920
in the laboratory 100 percent of the

1119
00:46:18,590 --> 00:46:16,230
time and it's outside of our paradigm

1120
00:46:19,820 --> 00:46:18,600
therefore it must not be real right same

1121
00:46:21,380 --> 00:46:19,830
thing with spoon bending right people

1122
00:46:24,830 --> 00:46:21,390
will say it doesn't exist but many

1123
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:24,840
people have seen it so you know I think

1124
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:26,970
it's showing us that the material world

1125
00:46:32,810 --> 00:46:29,220
is not quite what we think it is but

1126
00:46:34,490 --> 00:46:32,820
it's so far out of the paradigms so

1127
00:46:35,870 --> 00:46:34,500
getting back to Rockville and UFOs you

1128
00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:35,880
know I had lunch with him recently and

1129
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:38,460
he told me he investigated a case where

1130
00:46:41,690 --> 00:46:40,050
they were supposed to the UFO and they

1131
00:46:44,540 --> 00:46:41,700
said it came down at a 45-degree angle

1132
00:46:46,820 --> 00:46:44,550
and it actually left some marks on the

1133
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:46,830
ground and so there was some physical

1134
00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:49,710
evidence so John went back after the

1135
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:51,420
original investigation and he he looked

1136
00:46:55,310 --> 00:46:52,770
at me he looked he said you said it went

1137
00:46:58,670 --> 00:46:55,320
at a 45-degree angle that means it would

1138
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,680
have had to go through the trees they

1139
00:47:01,430 --> 00:47:00,240
said yeah but we don't want to tell

1140
00:47:04,460 --> 00:47:01,440
anybody that because nobody would

1141
00:47:06,859 --> 00:47:04,470
believe us right which gets back to you

1142
00:47:10,370 --> 00:47:06,869
know is this a virtual phenomenon that

1143
00:47:12,620 --> 00:47:10,380
gets mature realize when it's needed and

1144
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:12,630
it's something that we see and so you

1145
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:14,609
know I think that's where kind of

1146
00:47:20,750 --> 00:47:17,280
explaining how all that works is is the

1147
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:20,760
task that's ongoing I think yeah all

1148
00:47:26,990 --> 00:47:25,290
great points and I have tons of respect

1149
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:27,000
for Jacque Malay and he's been on the

1150
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:29,970
show as has Diana Walsh basillica who

1151
00:47:34,070 --> 00:47:31,890
also wrote a really nice blurb for your

1152
00:47:37,070 --> 00:47:34,080
book and you know and both these people

1153
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:37,080
a lot of it and I love the way you you

1154
00:47:40,070 --> 00:47:38,880
kind of laid it out there is because a

1155
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:40,080
lot of people don't get it

1156
00:47:45,620 --> 00:47:42,330
Jacques Vallee isn't saying it's just

1157
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:45,630
consciousness he's just saying it's not

1158
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:49,170
just nuts and bolts and I do think in

1159
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:51,570
that sense you do offer a bridge and a

1160
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:54,180
beautiful unique wonderful bridge of

1161
00:47:59,380 --> 00:47:57,359
saying I like your term you know the

1162
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:59,390
augmented reality augmented

1163
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:01,200
consciousness kind of thing because

1164
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:02,730
that's also what

1165
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:06,880
from the the et experience right is that

1166
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:10,030
they have an ability apparently put to

1167
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:13,690
manipulate consciousness like an app you

1168
00:48:19,950 --> 00:48:17,890
know it's on their iPhone you know there

1169
00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:19,960
it goes you know right here be there all

1170
00:48:26,940 --> 00:48:23,430
that stuff and again it does fit nicely

1171
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:26,950
inside of the model that you're laying

1172
00:48:31,799 --> 00:48:29,410
out that all the things that you just

1173
00:48:34,410 --> 00:48:31,809
said I won't try and repeat them but the

1174
00:48:36,569 --> 00:48:34,420
one kind of caveat I keep coming back to

1175
00:48:40,260 --> 00:48:36,579
is the white hat black hat kind of thing

1176
00:48:42,329 --> 00:48:40,270
again if you can you do right kind of

1177
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:42,339
thing isn't that what I said this whole

1178
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:46,930
thing well if you can control this level

1179
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:50,650
of consciousness upgrade then aren't you

1180
00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:53,650
likely to do that and aren't we likely

1181
00:49:01,260 --> 00:48:57,250
to be already living and experiencing a

1182
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:01,270
world where there are individuals groups

1183
00:49:07,890 --> 00:49:04,930
around us that have mastered this at

1184
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:07,900
least a couple levels up if you will and

1185
00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:11,650
are somehow controlling the game to me

1186
00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:13,630
that's a much better explanation for

1187
00:49:18,329 --> 00:49:14,260
this

1188
00:49:22,170 --> 00:49:18,339
just absurdly kind of infantile view we

1189
00:49:24,359 --> 00:49:22,180
have of consciousness materialism nuts

1190
00:49:26,339 --> 00:49:24,369
and bolts you're a biological robot and

1191
00:49:30,359 --> 00:49:26,349
a meaningless universe that just seems

1192
00:49:33,569 --> 00:49:30,369
like such a scripted narrative by a

1193
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:33,579
control group right so the question is

1194
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:36,160
are there super users who are then

1195
00:49:41,940 --> 00:49:39,730
saying trying to manipulate the game to

1196
00:49:44,130 --> 00:49:41,950
keep us thinking that we're inside the

1197
00:49:46,170 --> 00:49:44,140
game well and let's just be clear cuz we

1198
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:46,180
brought up Diana Walsh Basilica she says

1199
00:49:50,099 --> 00:49:47,650
she's already met some of those people

1200
00:49:52,260 --> 00:49:50,109
but there are a couple levels up and it

1201
00:49:54,690 --> 00:49:52,270
begs the question okay if you were vet

1202
00:49:56,250 --> 00:49:54,700
if you're able to uncover the couple

1203
00:49:58,859 --> 00:49:56,260
levels up just by going to a couple of

1204
00:50:02,130 --> 00:49:58,869
conferences are there five ten twenty

1205
00:50:04,289 --> 00:50:02,140
levels up oh right well that that's a

1206
00:50:06,900 --> 00:50:04,299
good question and it gets you know I'm a

1207
00:50:10,710 --> 00:50:06,910
big fan of Diana wash basilica and her

1208
00:50:13,799 --> 00:50:10,720
book and you know what I liked was that

1209
00:50:16,490 --> 00:50:13,809
she brought this point of view that they

1210
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:16,500
have in the religious traditions

1211
00:50:20,510 --> 00:50:18,720
when they're investigating claims of

1212
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:20,520
miracles and things you know she

1213
00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:23,010
mentioned that the the nun sister Maria

1214
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:25,710
that supposedly was in New Mexico at the

1215
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:27,690
same time she was in a monastery in

1216
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:30,930
Spain I think it was right and they say

1217
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:33,210
well let's start not by disbelieving

1218
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:36,510
these let's just set aside whether that

1219
00:50:41,630 --> 00:50:38,010
happened or not and let's study the

1220
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:41,640
social implications of this particular

1221
00:50:45,740 --> 00:50:43,920
belief system and then she went into the

1222
00:50:49,010 --> 00:50:45,750
you know the UFO world in the same way

1223
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:49,020
this not be a skeptic or a believer from

1224
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:51,089
day one but to set aside that question

1225
00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:52,770
and to study you know the actual

1226
00:50:56,569 --> 00:50:54,230
phenomena and I think that ties to

1227
00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:56,579
Jacques la has been saying for a while

1228
00:51:00,890 --> 00:50:57,960
that he thinks there's some kind of

1229
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:00,900
deception going on right it's almost as

1230
00:51:06,980 --> 00:51:03,290
if there are they are testing us to see

1231
00:51:10,190 --> 00:51:06,990
how we would react to certain things as

1232
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:10,200
a civilization whose the day right in

1233
00:51:14,660 --> 00:51:12,240
his case is he mentions you know there

1234
00:51:17,180 --> 00:51:14,670
have been you know fairies reported and

1235
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:17,190
otherworldly beings reported you know

1236
00:51:21,530 --> 00:51:19,410
for thousands of years like this isn't a

1237
00:51:23,450 --> 00:51:21,540
new phenomenon people have been seeing

1238
00:51:25,550 --> 00:51:23,460
things in the sky for many hundreds of

1239
00:51:29,390 --> 00:51:25,560
years because we're in a technological

1240
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,400
age we tend to associate things with

1241
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:31,920
spacecraft but let me just interject

1242
00:51:34,579 --> 00:51:33,119
something just to make sure we're

1243
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:34,589
talking about the same thing because I

1244
00:51:39,770 --> 00:51:38,010
just am going just talking we're just

1245
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:39,780
having an inside baseball convert kind

1246
00:51:44,690 --> 00:51:41,910
of conversation but that's what if like

1247
00:51:48,050 --> 00:51:44,700
to do people could catch out you know

1248
00:51:51,170 --> 00:51:48,060
but Diana Walsh Basilica is also talking

1249
00:51:53,329 --> 00:51:51,180
about the invisible college that's been

1250
00:51:56,329 --> 00:51:53,339
referenced a lot of times and she says I

1251
00:51:59,240 --> 00:51:56,339
ran into it I read hint ran head into it

1252
00:52:02,240 --> 00:51:59,250
where there's all these people who are

1253
00:52:04,730 --> 00:52:02,250
in academia who don't know what's going

1254
00:52:07,099 --> 00:52:04,740
on and they just are allowed to not know

1255
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:07,109
what's going on and then there's a small

1256
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:10,770
group who are the super users who do

1257
00:52:15,380 --> 00:52:12,930
know what's going on so she goes out in

1258
00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:15,390
the desert and Tyler takes her out there

1259
00:52:20,990 --> 00:52:17,910
and they find pieces of an alien

1260
00:52:23,390 --> 00:52:21,000
spacecraft which as well as they can

1261
00:52:25,819 --> 00:52:23,400
verify it with the best science that's

1262
00:52:27,710 --> 00:52:25,829
what it seems to be and Tyler is able to

1263
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:27,720
reverse-engineer it and get all sorts of

1264
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:28,800
biotech

1265
00:52:34,830 --> 00:52:31,450
pattinson make all sorts of money which

1266
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:34,840
good for him but it then this also goes

1267
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:37,180
into the invisible college this small

1268
00:52:40,770 --> 00:52:38,890
group that talks to each other and

1269
00:52:43,170 --> 00:52:40,780
doesn't talk to anyone else who knows

1270
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:43,180
this stuff is going on and then if we

1271
00:52:48,810 --> 00:52:46,000
extend that invisible college over to

1272
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:48,820
some of these extended realms that seem

1273
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:51,310
to be playing here there seems to be an

1274
00:52:56,970 --> 00:52:54,730
invisible college of 80 an invisible

1275
00:52:59,610 --> 00:52:56,980
college of shamans an invisible college

1276
00:53:02,250 --> 00:52:59,620
all over the place that's interacting

1277
00:53:05,940 --> 00:53:02,260
with us that may be taking us from this

1278
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:05,950
kind of super user to I don't know what

1279
00:53:11,370 --> 00:53:09,040
that super super user is but that seems

1280
00:53:16,530 --> 00:53:11,380
to be at play and I wonder if when we

1281
00:53:18,540 --> 00:53:16,540
talk about the bridge you know is it a

1282
00:53:21,420 --> 00:53:18,550
bridge or just a chasm you know is the

1283
00:53:24,030 --> 00:53:21,430
chasm so big there that you can't really

1284
00:53:26,100 --> 00:53:24,040
just get your little walking stick your

1285
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:26,110
little rope bridge and climb over it

1286
00:53:31,380 --> 00:53:29,290
it's just like forget it man yeah I

1287
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:31,390
think you know my understanding of the

1288
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:33,760
invisible college reference was more to

1289
00:53:38,730 --> 00:53:36,490
a group of researchers that were open to

1290
00:53:40,980 --> 00:53:38,740
these ideas and knows there's more going

1291
00:53:44,790 --> 00:53:40,990
on but they're not necessarily the ones

1292
00:53:46,020 --> 00:53:44,800
that are manipulating people to not see

1293
00:53:48,390 --> 00:53:46,030
it they're just continuing their

1294
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:48,400
research in private because they don't

1295
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:51,040
necessarily you know want to be public

1296
00:54:00,060 --> 00:53:58,210
about it because she goes to a

1297
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:00,070
conference and one of these guys speaks

1298
00:54:05,070 --> 00:54:02,530
up and everyone else goes hey what the

1299
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:05,080
hell are you doing the rule is you know

1300
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:06,640
the Fight Club rule and that's why

1301
00:54:11,810 --> 00:54:08,650
Frances Tyler you know the first rule of

1302
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:11,820
Fight Club yeah I'm gonna talk about

1303
00:54:18,890 --> 00:54:16,570
academics who tell me that at first you

1304
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:18,900
know for example I was speaking with a

1305
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:21,730
researcher in quantum physics who was in

1306
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:24,610
Harvard MIT and you know he told me that

1307
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:27,010
at first he thought it was just a case

1308
00:54:31,110 --> 00:54:29,530
of well there you know people don't want

1309
00:54:32,820 --> 00:54:31,120
to say the stuff because you know that

1310
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:32,830
they don't want to look ridiculous in

1311
00:54:37,470 --> 00:54:35,770
front of their peers and they want to be

1312
00:54:40,290 --> 00:54:37,480
able to continue to publish so it was

1313
00:54:42,060 --> 00:54:40,300
more like a systemic thing as opposed to

1314
00:54:44,430 --> 00:54:42,070
a coordinated effort right

1315
00:54:46,260 --> 00:54:44,440
kind of a decentralized system right

1316
00:54:48,750 --> 00:54:46,270
it's kind of like when when when people

1317
00:54:52,020 --> 00:54:48,760
say oh my god there's a Silicon Valley

1318
00:54:53,460 --> 00:54:52,030
conspiracy and they're all doing X well

1319
00:54:55,140 --> 00:54:53,470
turns out it's not a Silicon Valley

1320
00:54:57,180 --> 00:54:55,150
conspiracy it's just a bunch of people

1321
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:57,190
trying to make money and they're all

1322
00:55:00,960 --> 00:54:59,440
following the same set of rules but

1323
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:00,970
there's not necessarily a big conspiracy

1324
00:55:04,590 --> 00:55:02,890
they're all trying to get people

1325
00:55:05,820 --> 00:55:04,600
addicted to the technology because

1326
00:55:07,770 --> 00:55:05,830
that's what makes them more money right

1327
00:55:09,990 --> 00:55:07,780
so people are just following the rules

1328
00:55:12,930 --> 00:55:10,000
but then this particular researcher told

1329
00:55:17,010 --> 00:55:12,940
me that he was now beginning to suspect

1330
00:55:19,730 --> 00:55:17,020
that there was a coordinated effort that

1331
00:55:23,220 --> 00:55:19,740
whenever somebody went to talk about

1332
00:55:26,220 --> 00:55:23,230
these unexplained phenomenon that they

1333
00:55:27,750 --> 00:55:26,230
would be steered away right which would

1334
00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:27,760
be closer to what you're saying and

1335
00:55:31,590 --> 00:55:30,190
perhaps what Diana Ross Masuka saying

1336
00:55:34,470 --> 00:55:31,600
and I just met with a fresh start

1337
00:55:36,990 --> 00:55:34,480
Caltech who you know told me that you

1338
00:55:40,050 --> 00:55:37,000
know he was told no uncertain terms by

1339
00:55:42,150 --> 00:55:40,060
the trustees steer away from this right

1340
00:55:44,010 --> 00:55:42,160
so there may be a coordinated effort I

1341
00:55:45,810 --> 00:55:44,020
don't have as strong of an opinion on

1342
00:55:49,530 --> 00:55:45,820
that I think it's some of the conspiracy

1343
00:55:54,750 --> 00:55:49,540
guys do I mean I think I I think in a

1344
00:55:57,090 --> 00:55:54,760
way your book kind of validates that in

1345
00:55:58,860 --> 00:55:57,100
the if you can you would kind of thing

1346
00:56:00,210 --> 00:55:58,870
which is what I always mind up telling

1347
00:56:01,770 --> 00:56:00,220
people who don't believe in conspiracy

1348
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:01,780
theories I was never conspiracy

1349
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:03,370
theorists at least when I started

1350
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:05,410
skeptical ten years ago you know my

1351
00:56:08,430 --> 00:56:07,570
background I had an AI company way back

1352
00:56:10,350 --> 00:56:08,440
in the day

1353
00:56:13,470 --> 00:56:10,360
mined paths technologies I was getting

1354
00:56:16,050 --> 00:56:13,480
my PhD and information systems at the

1355
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:16,060
University Arizona got into AI and

1356
00:56:21,540 --> 00:56:18,730
expert systems started doing consulting

1357
00:56:34,940 --> 00:56:21,550
for Texas Instruments and DuPont and way

1358
00:56:37,950 --> 00:56:34,950
back in the day nowadays it's but I

1359
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:37,960
digress with that little bit of stories

1360
00:56:42,750 --> 00:56:40,210
I'm just so excited about all the stuff

1361
00:56:44,820 --> 00:56:42,760
you've done and then that MIT play lab

1362
00:56:47,910 --> 00:56:44,830
and all that cool stuff that you've done

1363
00:56:53,370 --> 00:56:47,920
but what I was gonna tie this back to is

1364
00:56:55,770 --> 00:56:53,380
you know if you can you do also applies

1365
00:56:59,640 --> 00:56:55,780
to all the stuff we're talking about

1366
00:57:03,590 --> 00:56:59,650
so if I can with a couple hundred

1367
00:57:06,660 --> 00:57:03,600
million dollars direct the narrative of

1368
00:57:09,450 --> 00:57:06,670
academic research and just leave the

1369
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:09,460
cheese in the maze where I want the

1370
00:57:14,430 --> 00:57:12,490
researchers to go well then I do it I

1371
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:14,440
don't pull back and say well I don't

1372
00:57:17,970 --> 00:57:15,910
want to do that because even though that

1373
00:57:21,630 --> 00:57:17,980
would serve my interests and serve my

1374
00:57:23,670 --> 00:57:21,640
agenda you know if you can you do so

1375
00:57:27,900 --> 00:57:23,680
that's what I think people leave out of

1376
00:57:30,780 --> 00:57:27,910
the conspiracy of course it's a

1377
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:30,790
conspiracy what what do we know what do

1378
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:32,770
we know of it is it a conspiracy like

1379
00:57:36,210 --> 00:57:34,480
you mentioned Silicon Valley oh look of

1380
00:57:38,550 --> 00:57:36,220
course that's anyone who's been in

1381
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:38,560
business above the assistant manager of

1382
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:40,810
McDonald's knows that it's a conspiracy

1383
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:42,880
you know where you buy your hamburger

1384
00:57:47,790 --> 00:57:45,910
buns and where you get your catch if it

1385
00:57:49,770 --> 00:57:47,800
all is that way then the military of

1386
00:57:55,610 --> 00:57:49,780
course we accept that politics we accept

1387
00:58:03,500 --> 00:57:59,700
immune from that I don't think well you

1388
00:58:07,290 --> 00:58:03,510
know a related question is this issue of

1389
00:58:11,070 --> 00:58:07,300
why would they not want us to know

1390
00:58:13,140 --> 00:58:11,080
certain things right and in the in the

1391
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:13,150
purview of the simulation hypothesis you

1392
00:58:17,730 --> 00:58:15,010
there was an academic who argued

1393
00:58:19,980 --> 00:58:17,740
recently in the New York Times that we

1394
00:58:22,290 --> 00:58:19,990
shouldn't try to find out if we're in a

1395
00:58:24,330 --> 00:58:22,300
simulation and he said the reason is

1396
00:58:27,570 --> 00:58:24,340
because if we do then the simulators

1397
00:58:29,070 --> 00:58:27,580
will shut us down right that was the

1398
00:58:30,860 --> 00:58:29,080
argument and this is in the New York

1399
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:30,870
Times and so I wrote a response to that

1400
00:58:36,780 --> 00:58:33,610
you know which York Times didn't publish

1401
00:58:39,270 --> 00:58:36,790
but you know some other periodicals did

1402
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:39,280
did publish and you know that is

1403
00:58:45,090 --> 00:58:42,730
assuming that the NPC version right so

1404
00:58:48,990 --> 00:58:45,100
it assumes we're just bits on a computer

1405
00:58:51,180 --> 00:58:49,000
if you take the RPG version perhaps

1406
00:58:53,130 --> 00:58:51,190
that's the purpose of the simulation is

1407
00:58:55,620 --> 00:58:53,140
for us to realize that it's a simulated

1408
00:58:57,420 --> 00:58:55,630
world and that the people who are

1409
00:58:59,370 --> 00:58:57,430
stopping us are like obstacles because

1410
00:59:00,960 --> 00:58:59,380
they don't want the game to end right so

1411
00:59:03,510 --> 00:59:00,970
it's kind of a reverse technological

1412
00:59:05,130 --> 00:59:03,520
version of Pascal's wager right Pascal's

1413
00:59:06,510 --> 00:59:05,140
wager was I don't know if there's a god

1414
00:59:08,790 --> 00:59:06,520
or not but I'm going to pretend like

1415
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:08,800
there is so that if there is at least

1416
00:59:12,390 --> 00:59:10,210
y'all get in heaven and if there isn't I

1417
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:12,400
haven't really lost anything down the

1418
00:59:16,650 --> 00:59:14,610
road you know this was saying

1419
00:59:18,060 --> 00:59:16,660
technologically we should act as if

1420
00:59:20,820 --> 00:59:18,070
we're not in the simulation because if

1421
00:59:22,770 --> 00:59:20,830
we if we find out we are now I'm of the

1422
00:59:24,810 --> 00:59:22,780
view we should do experiments to find

1423
00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:24,820
out and there's a physicist named Tom

1424
00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:25,990
Campbell I don't know if you've come

1425
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:27,310
across Demarest he's been on your show

1426
00:59:31,980 --> 00:59:29,050
and you know he's been talking about

1427
00:59:34,260 --> 00:59:31,990
this idea of a virtual reality world for

1428
00:59:36,630 --> 00:59:34,270
for many years and so he raised some

1429
00:59:38,580 --> 00:59:36,640
crowdfunding to do some experiments you

1430
00:59:40,290 --> 00:59:38,590
know down in Southern California and I

1431
00:59:43,260 --> 00:59:40,300
visited those a couple of months ago

1432
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:43,270
that are in progress and the idea is to

1433
00:59:47,340 --> 00:59:45,730
try to show through various versions as

1434
00:59:49,470 --> 00:59:47,350
a delayed choice experiment that what

1435
00:59:51,630 --> 00:59:49,480
you actually need is not a measurement

1436
00:59:54,540 --> 00:59:51,640
device but what you actually need is a

1437
00:59:57,180 --> 00:59:54,550
conscious observer at some point in that

1438
01:00:00,000 --> 00:59:57,190
process right and to say that's like a

1439
01:00:02,190 --> 01:00:00,010
video game getting back to the rendering

1440
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:02,200
an allergy you know that's kind of where

1441
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:03,010
they're trying to go and those

1442
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:04,570
experiments are still ongoing but I'm of

1443
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:06,370
the belief that perhaps that is the

1444
01:00:11,820 --> 01:00:09,970
whole point is for us to recognize what

1445
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:11,830
the purpose of the game is and perhaps

1446
01:00:16,170 --> 01:00:13,690
what your call some people call

1447
01:00:18,660 --> 01:00:16,180
conspiracies are agents like Agent Smith

1448
01:00:21,090 --> 01:00:18,670
that have been sent to make it more

1449
01:00:22,380 --> 01:00:21,100
difficult because some people say well

1450
01:00:23,730 --> 01:00:22,390
if I was gonna make a video game I would

1451
01:00:25,890 --> 01:00:23,740
make it really easy for me I would

1452
01:00:28,740 --> 01:00:25,900
become a trillionaire and I would you

1453
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:28,750
know everything would be great then if

1454
01:00:32,550 --> 01:00:31,210
you remember in the matrix in one of the

1455
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:32,560
sequels I forget was the second or the

1456
01:00:36,510 --> 01:00:34,450
third one they revealed that the first

1457
01:00:39,450 --> 01:00:36,520
version of the matrix was just this

1458
01:00:41,370 --> 01:00:39,460
great idea like paradise and the the

1459
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:41,380
human mind didn't accept it

1460
01:00:46,140 --> 01:00:43,690
so they had to introduce you know a

1461
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:46,150
whole bunch of you know strife and

1462
01:00:51,180 --> 01:00:49,090
boredom and grinding and all this stuff

1463
01:00:54,270 --> 01:00:51,190
in order for the human mind to accept it

1464
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:54,280
as real and so you know I often like to

1465
01:00:59,310 --> 01:00:56,530
use the analogy of an Indiana Jones film

1466
01:01:01,230 --> 01:00:59,320
right what if he got the treasure map at

1467
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:01,240
the beginning of the film and it just

1468
01:01:04,620 --> 01:01:02,530
said there you go there's where the Ark

1469
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:04,630
of the Covenant is go get it well it

1470
01:01:09,510 --> 01:01:05,770
wouldn't make for a very interesting

1471
01:01:11,790 --> 01:01:09,520
film and and since I'm saying that you

1472
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:11,800
know reality is like a 3d film that's

1473
01:01:16,950 --> 01:01:14,290
being recorded so that you can play back

1474
01:01:18,780 --> 01:01:16,960
pieces of these later on so you can kind

1475
01:01:20,970 --> 01:01:18,790
of review your performance if you will

1476
01:01:21,930 --> 01:01:20,980
that you have to make it an interesting

1477
01:01:23,819 --> 01:01:21,940
film

1478
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:23,829
along the way and that may be where the

1479
01:01:28,410 --> 01:01:25,930
difficulties kind of an otherwise you

1480
01:01:31,050 --> 01:01:28,420
know it would just be over hey that's uh

1481
01:01:33,300 --> 01:01:31,060
that's a really a great head scratcher

1482
01:01:35,010 --> 01:01:33,310
there but a great point I want to make

1483
01:01:36,599 --> 01:01:35,020
use of your time you've been super

1484
01:01:38,579 --> 01:01:36,609
generous and I know you're a busy guy I

1485
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:38,589
want to hit on two things really quick

1486
01:01:43,260 --> 01:01:41,890
to wrap this thing up and the I was

1487
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:43,270
going to jump right to the second one

1488
01:01:48,630 --> 01:01:45,970
but you're so deeply spiritual in a way

1489
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:48,640
I had to go back to the Eckhart Tolle

1490
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:50,410
thing that I was gonna bring up because

1491
01:01:57,150 --> 01:01:55,089
I think he's pretty cool way of bringing

1492
01:02:00,450 --> 01:01:57,160
a lot of these spiritual mystical

1493
01:02:03,780 --> 01:02:00,460
concepts down to earth and you also are

1494
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:03,790
into meditation to me one of the things

1495
01:02:11,010 --> 01:02:05,520
that becomes clear to anyone who's ever

1496
01:02:13,950 --> 01:02:11,020
meditated is the more is self-evident I

1497
01:02:18,180 --> 01:02:13,960
mean as soon as you go into this state

1498
01:02:20,940 --> 01:02:18,190
of awareness of that voice that monkey

1499
01:02:23,790 --> 01:02:20,950
mind you're in this different world you

1500
01:02:24,930 --> 01:02:23,800
are outside of the matrix instantly you

1501
01:02:27,300 --> 01:02:24,940
know like you know I was listening to

1502
01:02:29,010 --> 01:02:27,310
Eckhart Tolle not too long ago and he

1503
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:29,020
had a great point about the whole a

1504
01:02:34,829 --> 01:02:33,010
matrix thing he goes okay maybe we live

1505
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:34,839
in a matrix he goes yeah maybe that's

1506
01:02:39,930 --> 01:02:37,690
true certainly it does seem kind of

1507
01:02:44,250 --> 01:02:39,940
dreamlike what we're doing here he goes

1508
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:44,260
but if we are then there you are you're

1509
01:02:49,170 --> 01:02:47,200
the one who's experiencing it again so

1510
01:02:50,550 --> 01:02:49,180
again it goes back to the circles back

1511
01:02:53,730 --> 01:02:50,560
to the first thing we talked about in

1512
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:53,740
here of the neo versus agent Smith but I

1513
01:03:01,130 --> 01:02:57,250
don't know how anyone can construct the

1514
01:03:04,650 --> 01:03:01,140
agent Smith our argument when it is

1515
01:03:06,180 --> 01:03:04,660
self-evident that you are Matt which you

1516
01:03:09,900 --> 01:03:06,190
observe right I mean that's like the

1517
01:03:11,370 --> 01:03:09,910
first rule of metaphysics I am NOT the

1518
01:03:13,849 --> 01:03:11,380
computer because I can observe the

1519
01:03:17,849 --> 01:03:13,859
computer and I'm not bad you know so

1520
01:03:20,849 --> 01:03:17,859
what do you think here about this idea

1521
01:03:23,510 --> 01:03:20,859
that the more part of this the greater

1522
01:03:26,190 --> 01:03:23,520
consciousness isn't it

1523
01:03:29,790 --> 01:03:26,200
self-evident as soon as you sit down on

1524
01:03:31,770 --> 01:03:29,800
the meditation cushion well I think you

1525
01:03:33,569 --> 01:03:31,780
know you're getting back to even

1526
01:03:35,909 --> 01:03:33,579
Descartes right

1527
01:03:39,179 --> 01:03:35,919
if he said if everything was a dream or

1528
01:03:40,739 --> 01:03:39,189
if he was being deceived by an evil

1529
01:03:42,809 --> 01:03:40,749
demon the only thing he knows for sure

1530
01:03:45,299 --> 01:03:42,819
is that you know he's there I think

1531
01:03:46,589 --> 01:03:45,309
therefore I am which is kind of like the

1532
01:03:49,829 --> 01:03:46,599
fundamental idea that you're talking

1533
01:03:51,989 --> 01:03:49,839
about but you know this dreamlike nature

1534
01:03:54,149 --> 01:03:51,999
of reality is quite interesting to me

1535
01:03:56,579 --> 01:03:54,159
and I spend a lot of time on dreams

1536
01:03:58,949 --> 01:03:56,589
right because you know I talk about the

1537
01:04:00,899 --> 01:03:58,959
technology that we will develop to build

1538
01:04:02,339 --> 01:04:00,909
something like The Matrix well it turns

1539
01:04:04,979 --> 01:04:02,349
out it's already exists in biological

1540
01:04:07,649 --> 01:04:04,989
form it's called dreams every night we

1541
01:04:09,989 --> 01:04:07,659
create these worlds and inside the world

1542
01:04:12,779 --> 01:04:09,999
we're there but there's a bunch of other

1543
01:04:14,669 --> 01:04:12,789
beings who could in fact be NPCs so you

1544
01:04:16,469 --> 01:04:14,679
know one thing I say is that the NPC and

1545
01:04:17,909 --> 01:04:16,479
RPG versions are not mutually exclusive

1546
01:04:19,859 --> 01:04:17,919
I can play a video game where there's

1547
01:04:22,679 --> 01:04:19,869
player characters and there's other

1548
01:04:25,109 --> 01:04:22,689
people put there as obstacles or NPCs to

1549
01:04:26,639 --> 01:04:25,119
help you along the way or people that

1550
01:04:29,279 --> 01:04:26,649
look like they're there to help you but

1551
01:04:31,409 --> 01:04:29,289
don't really aren't there to help you

1552
01:04:34,409 --> 01:04:31,419
and you know within the Tibetan Buddhist

1553
01:04:36,569 --> 01:04:34,419
traditions they use dream yoga yeah

1554
01:04:38,370 --> 01:04:36,579
which is a form of lucid dreaming too

1555
01:04:40,109 --> 01:04:38,380
once you learn to wake up within the

1556
01:04:42,479 --> 01:04:40,119
dream and recognize what is real and

1557
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:42,489
what is it you can do that in the

1558
01:04:47,309 --> 01:04:45,130
physical world as well around you so

1559
01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:47,319
who's to say that there aren't some NPCs

1560
01:04:50,789 --> 01:04:49,119
around us I had a woman say to me the

1561
01:04:56,699 --> 01:04:50,799
other day you know I think my husband is

1562
01:04:58,919 --> 01:04:56,709
an NPC is they don't tell him that but

1563
01:05:00,599 --> 01:04:58,929
you know I may have gotten off track a

1564
01:05:03,389 --> 01:05:00,609
little bit but you know I find that this

1565
01:05:06,089 --> 01:05:03,399
this is this analogy of the dreamlike

1566
01:05:08,370 --> 01:05:06,099
nature of reality is really really

1567
01:05:10,259 --> 01:05:08,380
interesting and it ties very much to

1568
01:05:11,429 --> 01:05:10,269
this idea that we may live you know in

1569
01:05:15,179 --> 01:05:11,439
the simulated world and I think when you

1570
01:05:16,739 --> 01:05:15,189
meditate you realize that there's a part

1571
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:16,749
of you that isn't your physical body

1572
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:18,729
there's a part of you that isn't your

1573
01:05:23,429 --> 01:05:21,039
emotions and then eventually there's a

1574
01:05:25,349 --> 01:05:23,439
part of you that isn't your thoughts and

1575
01:05:29,370 --> 01:05:25,359
what is that part and I think that is

1576
01:05:33,089 --> 01:05:29,380
the essence of a lot of deep spiritual

1577
01:05:34,769 --> 01:05:33,099
inquiries what is that part and so you

1578
01:05:36,870 --> 01:05:34,779
know that's when people ask me how do i

1579
01:05:37,259 --> 01:05:36,880
hack the matrix I say hey that's how you

1580
01:05:40,259 --> 01:05:37,269
do it

1581
01:05:43,259 --> 01:05:40,269
quiet the datastream right that's coming

1582
01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:43,269
in and remember that there's a part of

1583
01:05:47,610 --> 01:05:46,630
you that is just as in a dream that was

1584
01:05:49,230 --> 01:05:47,620
in line

1585
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:49,240
but this part of you is consciousness

1586
01:05:55,550 --> 01:05:51,730
outside of the matrix and that that's

1587
01:05:58,350 --> 01:05:55,560
the way that you can do it awesome

1588
01:06:01,260 --> 01:05:58,360
awesomeness okay let's wrap it up with

1589
01:06:03,630 --> 01:06:01,270
here now kind of question that a lot of

1590
01:06:06,510 --> 01:06:03,640
people I don't know get pretty worked up

1591
01:06:09,210 --> 01:06:06,520
about and I think for good reason the

1592
01:06:11,010 --> 01:06:09,220
strong AI thing like I said I've been

1593
01:06:13,170 --> 01:06:11,020
following ni for a long time and I was

1594
01:06:15,270 --> 01:06:13,180
always a disbeliever but there's some

1595
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:15,280
advancements an AI that would make

1596
01:06:21,050 --> 01:06:18,730
anyone wonder and from as a Silicon

1597
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:21,060
Valley guy as a very successful investor

1598
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:24,130
entrepreneur I mean what are we to make

1599
01:06:28,590 --> 01:06:27,130
of I don't know you don't have to agree

1600
01:06:30,510 --> 01:06:28,600
with this because it's really kind of

1601
01:06:34,890 --> 01:06:30,520
controversial but just the reality that

1602
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:34,900
I have up on the screen you know the

1603
01:06:41,820 --> 01:06:36,850
Simpson quote you know I for one welcome

1604
01:06:46,290 --> 01:06:41,830
our new AI overlords me we have we have

1605
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:46,300
D monetization we already have AI in

1606
01:06:52,170 --> 01:06:49,570
place in the hands of people who when

1607
01:06:55,050 --> 01:06:52,180
they wield that power we've already

1608
01:06:57,660 --> 01:06:55,060
begun to see the power that they that

1609
01:07:00,000 --> 01:06:57,670
they can exercise in this world and it

1610
01:07:01,650 --> 01:07:00,010
goes beyond Google of course it's in a

1611
01:07:06,090 --> 01:07:01,660
million different places that we can't

1612
01:07:09,050 --> 01:07:06,100
see but should we fear it in maybe some

1613
01:07:11,610 --> 01:07:09,060
very real ways that we're already

1614
01:07:14,700 --> 01:07:11,620
experiencing and second part of that is

1615
01:07:17,730 --> 01:07:14,710
what about the concentration of this AI

1616
01:07:20,820 --> 01:07:17,740
power and again like we're saying if you

1617
01:07:23,820 --> 01:07:20,830
can you would if you can you'd hold on

1618
01:07:26,310 --> 01:07:23,830
to it you wouldn't share it alright well

1619
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:26,320
so I think you know many people wonder

1620
01:07:32,610 --> 01:07:29,050
you know how sophisticated AI has gotten

1621
01:07:36,030 --> 01:07:32,620
and you remember you know AI back in the

1622
01:07:37,950 --> 01:07:36,040
90s and in the 2000s and it was not very

1623
01:07:39,870 --> 01:07:37,960
powerful and what happened is AI has

1624
01:07:42,510 --> 01:07:39,880
gone through several waves right there

1625
01:07:45,210 --> 01:07:42,520
was the expert systems and rule-based

1626
01:07:47,100 --> 01:07:45,220
wave then you know neural nets came

1627
01:07:48,900 --> 01:07:47,110
along for a while and when I was in

1628
01:07:50,970 --> 01:07:48,910
college in the 90s you know we studied

1629
01:07:53,070 --> 01:07:50,980
how to make neural nets and this recent

1630
01:07:55,770 --> 01:07:53,080
wave has been more about data and

1631
01:07:58,680 --> 01:07:55,780
machine learning and and reinforcement

1632
01:07:59,940 --> 01:07:58,690
learning and so a lot of the you know a

1633
01:08:00,390 --> 01:07:59,950
lot of the advances that have come

1634
01:08:02,609 --> 01:08:00,400
really

1635
01:08:04,740 --> 01:08:02,619
we have been because computing power the

1636
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:04,750
availability of data and the ability to

1637
01:08:08,279 --> 01:08:06,400
crunch this and for machines to learn

1638
01:08:10,650 --> 01:08:08,289
and the video game world right

1639
01:08:12,630 --> 01:08:10,660
you know claw Shan and who created what

1640
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:12,640
what I consider one of the first AIS

1641
01:08:18,749 --> 01:08:15,010
which was a chess-playing computer back

1642
01:08:22,620 --> 01:08:18,759
in 1950 he was at Bell Labs and MIT is

1643
01:08:25,140 --> 01:08:22,630
that gaming nai you know are related but

1644
01:08:27,390 --> 01:08:25,150
he said you know that the stages of AI

1645
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:27,400
he first saw in the future were you know

1646
01:08:32,519 --> 01:08:30,850
where a game can play a rule a I can

1647
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:32,529
place play a rule based game like Jess

1648
01:08:36,780 --> 01:08:34,480
but then eventually it can learn the

1649
01:08:39,599 --> 01:08:36,790
rules right and that's kind of where we

1650
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:39,609
are today but we're not at you know a

1651
01:08:43,110 --> 01:08:41,650
colleague of his contemporary Alan

1652
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:43,120
Turing had the Turing test right which

1653
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:45,130
is this idea that you know if you're

1654
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:47,290
talking to an AI back then it was to a

1655
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:49,089
computer not necessarily software they

1656
01:08:51,599 --> 01:08:50,650
were thinking about its hardware but if

1657
01:08:53,579 --> 01:08:51,609
you're talking to

1658
01:08:55,410 --> 01:08:53,589
AI versus a person you can't tell the

1659
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:55,420
difference then the turning test has

1660
01:08:58,740 --> 01:08:56,650
been passed or what he called the

1661
01:09:01,380 --> 01:08:58,750
imitation game back then and we're not

1662
01:09:02,970 --> 01:09:01,390
quite at that quite there yet right I

1663
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:02,980
mean in talking with an AI you can

1664
01:09:06,899 --> 01:09:05,170
usually tell if it's still there in

1665
01:09:11,370 --> 01:09:06,909
Mike's in my opinion there's another

1666
01:09:13,019 --> 01:09:11,380
wave of AI that may need to come add it

1667
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:13,029
on to the current technology I don't

1668
01:09:17,070 --> 01:09:15,130
know what that is before we get there

1669
01:09:19,140 --> 01:09:17,080
but a lot of people are worried about

1670
01:09:22,499 --> 01:09:19,150
super intelligence right and that AI

1671
01:09:26,970 --> 01:09:22,509
will take over the world I I actually

1672
01:09:31,380 --> 01:09:26,980
worry not that the AI is so intelligent

1673
01:09:33,329 --> 01:09:31,390
but if we start to hook up weapons to AI

1674
01:09:35,519 --> 01:09:33,339
and the AI is actually not that

1675
01:09:38,550 --> 01:09:35,529
intelligent it's more intelligent than

1676
01:09:41,789 --> 01:09:38,560
it is now but today's AI is very limited

1677
01:09:42,930 --> 01:09:41,799
it's only good at certain tasks right we

1678
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:42,940
don't have artificial general

1679
01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:45,250
intelligence yet because you have to

1680
01:09:50,820 --> 01:09:48,400
train it along certain things and so if

1681
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:50,830
you're training it just shoot right so

1682
01:09:56,130 --> 01:09:52,810
it's almost like would you rather fight

1683
01:09:58,189 --> 01:09:56,140
out do a training match in karate with a

1684
01:10:00,540 --> 01:09:58,199
brown belt or a 10th degree black belt

1685
01:10:02,729 --> 01:10:00,550
well it turns out the brown belt is more

1686
01:10:04,950 --> 01:10:02,739
likely to hurt you then attempt to do

1687
01:10:06,419 --> 01:10:04,960
black belts who will make sure you don't

1688
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:06,429
get hurt too much when you're doing the

1689
01:10:09,899 --> 01:10:07,690
sparring because they not only have the

1690
01:10:11,550 --> 01:10:09,909
power they also have the refinement and

1691
01:10:13,830 --> 01:10:11,560
the control and the wisdom right

1692
01:10:16,129 --> 01:10:13,840
that was their directive

1693
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:16,139
I mean it depends what the directive

1694
01:10:19,649 --> 01:10:18,250
defensive on what the directive is and

1695
01:10:21,390 --> 01:10:19,659
what the values are on the air so I

1696
01:10:24,660 --> 01:10:21,400
think eventually we will have to worry

1697
01:10:26,310 --> 01:10:24,670
about a I and weaponized AI but don't

1698
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:26,320
have to worry about it this is the point

1699
01:10:30,330 --> 01:10:28,330
oh don't we have to maybe if we look

1700
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:30,340
really hard don't we have to worry about

1701
01:10:34,470 --> 01:10:32,530
it now maybe a little bit more than we

1702
01:10:37,020 --> 01:10:34,480
think we are and isn't it creeping into

1703
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:37,030
our lives in ways that we don't

1704
01:10:42,660 --> 01:10:39,730
immediately recognize what like search

1705
01:10:46,530 --> 01:10:42,670
right now searches is not in the control

1706
01:10:48,300 --> 01:10:46,540
of Google per se it's in the control of

1707
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:48,310
a lot of the agents that they've built

1708
01:10:50,910 --> 01:10:49,330
and I'm not trying to be super

1709
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:50,920
controversial there I mean I think right

1710
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:52,449
you would know much better than I am but

1711
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:53,770
that's just the fact I mean that's

1712
01:10:58,350 --> 01:10:56,290
certainly a fact in trading trading you

1713
01:11:01,020 --> 01:10:58,360
know stock trading securities trading is

1714
01:11:02,970 --> 01:11:01,030
not in the hands of traders I mean that

1715
01:11:04,470 --> 01:11:02,980
is all automated at this point right

1716
01:11:06,810 --> 01:11:04,480
it's in the hand of the algorithms and

1717
01:11:07,589 --> 01:11:06,820
you're right search D monetization right

1718
01:11:10,260 --> 01:11:07,599
you'll hear about people getting

1719
01:11:12,350 --> 01:11:10,270
demonetized on youtube because they got

1720
01:11:14,820 --> 01:11:12,360
swept up because they said certain words

1721
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:14,830
which were picked up by the algorithm

1722
01:11:20,310 --> 01:11:17,650
but you know I would say that we've

1723
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:20,320
always had an element of media control

1724
01:11:24,330 --> 01:11:22,449
right I mean if you go back when I was a

1725
01:11:28,290 --> 01:11:24,340
kid there were only three networks and

1726
01:11:30,359 --> 01:11:28,300
pretty much they decided you know what

1727
01:11:32,220 --> 01:11:30,369
was what what was on the news and what

1728
01:11:34,850 --> 01:11:32,230
wasn't and we have a corporate

1729
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:34,860
controlled media and so yes we do have

1730
01:11:42,209 --> 01:11:38,530
these kinds of things happening with AI

1731
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:42,219
and algorithms but we also have more

1732
01:11:45,810 --> 01:11:43,570
access to information than we've ever

1733
01:11:48,689 --> 01:11:45,820
had before right so there are actually

1734
01:11:51,300 --> 01:11:48,699
way more points of view now than there

1735
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:51,310
used to be so you know I yeah I'm a

1736
01:11:54,209 --> 01:11:53,050
little worried about that I'm not so

1737
01:11:56,310 --> 01:11:54,219
worried about that I think that's always

1738
01:11:58,770 --> 01:11:56,320
been the case but I think actually

1739
01:12:00,330 --> 01:11:58,780
there's a lot more you know there's a

1740
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:00,340
lot more information flowing now than

1741
01:12:04,620 --> 01:12:02,290
there ever was before even with these

1742
01:12:08,820 --> 01:12:04,630
these algorithms and and and the AI and

1743
01:12:11,250 --> 01:12:08,830
the search algorithms etc well our guest

1744
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:11,260
again has been I said The Amazing Race

1745
01:12:15,959 --> 01:12:13,449
verk and I'm going to say it again The

1746
01:12:18,689 --> 01:12:15,969
Amazing Race work and the book we talked

1747
01:12:21,030 --> 01:12:18,699
a lot about is the simulation hypothesis

1748
01:12:23,459 --> 01:12:21,040
but you can follow him in any number of

1749
01:12:25,859 --> 01:12:23,469
ways he's out there he produces so much

1750
01:12:27,390 --> 01:12:25,869
great stuff Rose tell folks a little bit

1751
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:27,400
about some of the

1752
01:12:31,670 --> 01:12:29,170
logics that you have going on right now

1753
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:31,680
that they might want to keep an eye on

1754
01:12:35,970 --> 01:12:34,090
sure well you know this book is out

1755
01:12:38,430 --> 01:12:35,980
there I'm gonna be working on a second

1756
01:12:40,500 --> 01:12:38,440
edition of this book which will probably

1757
01:12:45,060 --> 01:12:40,510
come out next year on the when the

1758
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:45,070
matrix four comes out in May of 2021

1759
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:47,410
people can visit my Twitter feed at at

1760
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:53,730
wrist Danford or my website at ZeniMax

1761
01:12:57,840 --> 01:12:56,530
Cole that's kind of the the other area

1762
01:12:59,160 --> 01:12:57,850
where I spend a lot more a lot of my

1763
01:13:01,350 --> 01:12:59,170
time is with startups and in the

1764
01:13:03,710 --> 01:13:01,360
technology world and then I always have

1765
01:13:06,150 --> 01:13:03,720
articles coming out I even started a

1766
01:13:08,340 --> 01:13:06,160
podcast recently called the simulated

1767
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:08,350
universe at the edges of science and

1768
01:13:13,350 --> 01:13:11,410
science fiction awesome we didn't talk a

1769
01:13:15,330 --> 01:13:13,360
lot about science fiction but if anyone

1770
01:13:17,850 --> 01:13:15,340
is into science fiction there are all

1771
01:13:20,130 --> 01:13:17,860
these threads that are interwoven into

1772
01:13:21,990 --> 01:13:20,140
this book and his work in general that

1773
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:22,000
people want to check out absolutely

1774
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:24,400
fantastic heavy on thank you so much for

1775
01:13:28,190 --> 01:13:26,410
joining me thank you so much for having

1776
01:13:30,810 --> 01:13:28,200
me on I really enjoyed our conversation

1777
01:13:33,690 --> 01:13:30,820
thanks again to rizz verk for joining me

1778
01:13:36,660 --> 01:13:33,700
today on skeptical one question I'd have

1779
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:36,670
to tee up from this interview how far

1780
01:13:44,820 --> 01:13:43,090
has if it can it will a I advanced it's

1781
01:13:47,310 --> 01:13:44,830
something we just kind of touched on in

1782
01:13:50,220 --> 01:13:47,320
this show but I think it really sparks

1783
01:13:52,500 --> 01:13:50,230
some interesting conversation or the

1784
01:13:54,510 --> 01:13:52,510
beginnings of a conversation and I'd

1785
01:13:56,850 --> 01:13:54,520
like to invite you to join in and maybe

1786
01:13:59,280 --> 01:13:56,860
finish that conversation what a great

1787
01:14:01,950 --> 01:13:59,290
guest so thankful for him coming on and

1788
01:14:05,250 --> 01:14:01,960
I think his work could turn out to be

1789
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:05,260
really important in all these questions

1790
01:14:11,220 --> 01:14:08,530
that we're exploring on skeptic oh so do

1791
01:14:13,620 --> 01:14:11,230
join me over at the skeptical forum to

1792
01:14:15,810 --> 01:14:13,630
discuss anything you want to discuss

1793
01:14:18,570 --> 01:14:15,820
about the show or you can of course

1794
01:14:21,090 --> 01:14:18,580
reach me on Facebook or wherever you

1795
01:14:23,250 --> 01:14:21,100
reach me be sure to check out all the

1796
01:14:24,870 --> 01:14:23,260
other shows on skeptic oh you can find

1797
01:14:26,220 --> 01:14:24,880
him through the sceptical website you

1798
01:14:28,440 --> 01:14:26,230
can download all the shows for free

1799
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:28,450
there's no advertisements there's no

1800
01:14:33,540 --> 01:14:31,930
firewall there's no anything just hope

1801
01:14:35,220 --> 01:14:33,550
you'll like them hope you use them hope

1802
01:14:37,230 --> 01:14:35,230
they're meaningful to you and I hope you

1803
01:14:39,229 --> 01:14:37,240
share them with other people who you

1804
01:14:41,030 --> 01:14:39,239
think need to hear

1805
01:14:43,190 --> 01:14:41,040
some of the information we talk about on

1806
01:14:45,610 --> 01:14:43,200
this show I have some good stuff coming

1807
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:45,620
up please stay with me for all of that

1808
01:14:50,780 --> 01:14:49,170
until next time take care and bye for